Latest Blender (2.53 Beta) unusable on my G4 Mac due to screen draw speeds. #23292

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Mark Knight · 2010-08-13T04:16:06+02:00

Mark Knight commented

2010-08-13 04:16:06 +02:00

%%%No .blend file required!

Upon starting Blender 2.53 Beta I get an incredibly slow screen draw and then if I wait long enough a response speed far too slow to use the program.

I can watch individual icons appearing slowly enough to count them and text menu items appear so slowly, letter by letter, that it is possible to write the words on paper with a pen almost as fast as they appear on the screen. Versions of Blender from 2.24 to 2.49b work fine on this system.

System:

PowerMac G4 500MHz.
1GB RAM.
Mac OS-X 10.4.11

Two graphics cards:
Radeon 7000 64MB (supports Open GL 1.3) running at 2048x1152 (my main monitor)
Rage 128 Pro 16MB (supports OpenGL 1.2) running at 1280x960 (second monitor, not in use with Blender)%%%

%%%No .blend file required! Upon starting Blender 2.53 Beta I get an incredibly slow screen draw and then if I wait long enough a response speed far too slow to use the program. I can watch individual icons appearing slowly enough to count them and text menu items appear so slowly, letter by letter, that it is possible to write the words on paper with a pen almost as fast as they appear on the screen. Versions of Blender from 2.24 to 2.49b work fine on this system. System: PowerMac G4 500MHz. 1GB RAM. Mac OS-X 10.4.11 Two graphics cards: Radeon 7000 64MB (supports Open GL 1.3) running at 2048x1152 (my main monitor) Rage 128 Pro 16MB (supports OpenGL 1.2) running at 1280x960 (second monitor, not in use with Blender)%%%

Mark Knight commented

2010-08-13 04:16:06 +02:00

Changed status to: 'Open'

Nathan Letwory commented

2010-08-13 22:44:11 +02:00

%%%Please try changing the window draw method in user preferences > system. Change from automatic to full redraw - if that work, try the other ones too.%%%

Mark Knight commented

2010-08-13 23:27:38 +02:00

%%%I'd like to try that but I can't change any settings from within Blender 2.53 at all, because it really is unusable even for changing its own preferences. Every movement of the mouse produces flickering redraws that take an age, and menus have no text in them if I click on a menu drop-down. I tried to drag the corner of the window to reduce it, so the graphics card would have more free memory, but it isn't possible to do that much.%%%

Mark Knight commented

2010-08-13 23:58:05 +02:00

%%%OK, I had a brainwave and it sort of worked; I set the main monitor to 1024x576 instead of the usual 2048x1152, then started Blender. The initial screen took about a minute to draw, which is a lot faster than it was before. Unfortunately the program is still unusable, even to set its own preferences; when I called up the Preferences window the attached image is what I got.%%%

Nathan Letwory commented

2010-08-14 00:30:10 +02:00

%%%Ah, instead of opening the user preferences into a new window (as happens through the File menu), open it through the window type menu in the lower-lefthand corner of 3dview. That way you should be able to read still. I understand it's all agonizingly slow, but this will be the fastest way of 'fixing' your problem right now.%%%

Mark Knight commented

2010-08-14 23:51:48 +02:00

%%%OK, I tried that but it's not possible. None of those drop-down menus work at all, all you get is a ghostly flickering rectangle where the menu should be with nothing inside it to click on. It's hard enough to get as far as I did with the file menu, as that too flickers like crazy and is half the time not visible, but the window type drop-downs are even worse. It looks as if I will not be able to join in the Blender testing until some more progress is made. :(

I even tried setting the monitor to 848x480, a really low resolution, so free up more memory on the graphics card, but although the initial screen redraw was faster it made no difference to the drop-downs.%%%

%%%OK, I tried that but it's not possible. None of those drop-down menus work at all, all you get is a ghostly flickering rectangle where the menu should be with nothing inside it to click on. It's hard enough to get as far as I did with the file menu, as that too flickers like crazy and is half the time not visible, but the window type drop-downs are even worse. It looks as if I will not be able to join in the Blender testing until some more progress is made. :( I even tried setting the monitor to 848x480, a really low resolution, so free up more memory on the graphics card, but although the initial screen redraw was faster it made no difference to the drop-downs.%%%

Shane Ambler commented

2010-08-17 08:25:17 +02:00

%%%I am wondering if blender is picking up and only using the Rage 128. Or maybe just the vram of the Rage.
I am guessing the Rage is in the agp slot and the Radeon is in a pci slot. I seem to recall hearing that pci video cards don't support opengl acceleration due to pci speeds. Or maybe it was just Apple's Quartz extreme. Maybe the pci speed is what is causing the slow redraw.
The resolution/colour depth of the second monitor connected to the Rage may make more difference than the Radeon monitor.

I have noticed that in 2.4 if you don't have enough vram you resize the window and it will recover when at a size it can cope with - 2.5 doesn't work this way, you need 2.5 to start with a smaller window to work.

First try changing to thousand colours before starting blender.
Then try lower resolutions in thousands.

Once you can get it started resize the main window a bit and in prefs save as default. Next time you start it the blender window will be the smaller size even if you increase the screen resolution.

Then try starting in millions of colours with the smaller window.

You can then try resizing the window to see how large you can get it and still work.

Running blender in thousand colours is only a problem when you come to texturing.

I have a Dual G4 1.25G which until recently had a Geforce4MX 32MB - it wouldn't run blender 2.5 in million colours with a window greater than about half screen (1920x1080) but I could run thousand colours in full screen. I picked up a AGP Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB on ebay a few weeks ago for about $80 which supports two monitors and now I have no problems with 2.5.
It is a new card - a recent pc oem model that has been flashed with mac firmware.

%%%

%%%I am wondering if blender is picking up and only using the Rage 128. Or maybe just the vram of the Rage. I am guessing the Rage is in the agp slot and the Radeon is in a pci slot. I seem to recall hearing that pci video cards don't support opengl acceleration due to pci speeds. Or maybe it was just Apple's Quartz extreme. Maybe the pci speed is what is causing the slow redraw. The resolution/colour depth of the second monitor connected to the Rage may make more difference than the Radeon monitor. I have noticed that in 2.4 if you don't have enough vram you resize the window and it will recover when at a size it can cope with - 2.5 doesn't work this way, you need 2.5 to start with a smaller window to work. First try changing to thousand colours before starting blender. Then try lower resolutions in thousands. Once you can get it started resize the main window a bit and in prefs save as default. Next time you start it the blender window will be the smaller size even if you increase the screen resolution. Then try starting in millions of colours with the smaller window. You can then try resizing the window to see how large you can get it and still work. Running blender in thousand colours is only a problem when you come to texturing. I have a Dual G4 1.25G which until recently had a Geforce4MX 32MB - it wouldn't run blender 2.5 in million colours with a window greater than about half screen (1920x1080) but I could run thousand colours in full screen. I picked up a AGP Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB on ebay a few weeks ago for about $80 which supports two monitors and now I have no problems with 2.5. It is a new card - a recent pc oem model that has been flashed with mac firmware. %%%

Nathan Letwory commented

2010-08-19 14:46:07 +02:00

%%%starting blender with a smaller window you can do from command-line. Not entirely sure how to do that on OSX, but something along the lines of:

./blender -w -p 100 100 500 500

This will start blender with lower-left corner on 100,100 calculated from desktop lower-left corner, and with width and height of 500 and 500.%%%

%%%starting blender with a smaller window you can do from command-line. Not entirely sure how to do that on OSX, but something along the lines of: ./blender -w -p 100 100 500 500 This will start blender with lower-left corner on 100,100 calculated from desktop lower-left corner, and with width and height of 500 and 500.%%%

Mark Knight commented

2010-09-17 05:30:44 +02:00

%%%Is the nature of this problem understood by the developers? It's still present in 2.54 beta I downloaded a short while ago, making it impossible for me to use that as well.

Starting Blender on a smaller screen or with a smaller window (which amounts to the same thing) does not help.%%%

%%%Is the nature of this problem understood by the developers? It's still present in 2.54 beta I downloaded a short while ago, making it impossible for me to use that as well. Starting Blender on a smaller screen or with a smaller window (which amounts to the same thing) does not help.%%%

Shane Ambler commented

2010-09-17 09:27:07 +02:00

%%%2.5x has increased the graphics card requirements over 2.4x - while still simple it is starting to drop support of old lower end machines.

I'm pretty confident that blender only sees the rage 128 Pro and doesn't have any benefit from the Radeon 7000. Am I correct in the Rage 128 being the original card in the AGP slot and the Radeon being in a PCI slot?

Have you tried running in thousand colours?
%%%

%%%2.5x has increased the graphics card requirements over 2.4x - while still simple it is starting to drop support of old lower end machines. I'm pretty confident that blender only sees the rage 128 Pro and doesn't have any benefit from the Radeon 7000. Am I correct in the Rage 128 being the original card in the AGP slot and the Radeon being in a PCI slot? Have you tried running in thousand colours? %%%

Mark Knight commented

2010-09-17 15:50:12 +02:00

%%%Shane if the display is on the monitor being driven by the Radeon 7000 then the software is using the memory of that card, not the Rage 128 Pro. It isn't possible to use the memory of one graphics card in a system to display items on a monitor driven by another card. It is probably possible to use storage on one card for icons and/or graphics and display them on another card, but it's much harder to program and would be a great way to slow the whole display process down; I'm therefore pretty sure that the Blender developers wouldn't do something like that. You could not do it accidentally it would have to be deliberate. In addition wherever you got it from the suggestion that PCI cards don't support OpenGL is total nonsense; there's more than enough bandwidth in a PCI slot for decent graphics.

Yes I have tried thousands of colours; it made no difference.

I have a paying project about to start and so I'll soon have much less time to use Blender 2.5x; I'll have to use 2.49b to get my work done and will have less time to play for a few weeks. I was hoping this would be resolved before then but maybe not.%%%

%%%Shane if the display is on the monitor being driven by the Radeon 7000 then the software is using the memory of that card, not the Rage 128 Pro. It isn't possible to use the memory of one graphics card in a system to display items on a monitor driven by another card. It is probably possible to use storage on one card for icons and/or graphics and display them on another card, but it's much harder to program and would be a great way to slow the whole display process down; I'm therefore pretty sure that the Blender developers wouldn't do something like that. You could not do it accidentally it would have to be deliberate. In addition wherever you got it from the suggestion that PCI cards don't support OpenGL is total nonsense; there's more than enough bandwidth in a PCI slot for decent graphics. Yes I have tried thousands of colours; it made no difference. I have a paying project about to start and so I'll soon have much less time to use Blender 2.5x; I'll have to use 2.49b to get my work done and will have less time to play for a few weeks. I was hoping this would be resolved before then but maybe not.%%%

Shane Ambler commented

2010-09-17 20:14:58 +02:00

%%%The graphics card may provide vram used to display an image on a monitor - that doesn't mean the video card is used for any graphics acceleration.
If you look in the system profiler you will find that neither video card will support quartz extreme (Apple's accelerated graphics effects) which actually uses opengl for acceleration. I believe there are some hacks available to get the radeon pci card used for quartz extreme, maybe that can effect opengl as well.

I haven't looked into how blender sets up opengl but from what you describe it would appear it gets the first video card (rage 128 pro) and configures itself from that. Maybe there is a way to get a list of cards and work with the best one.
%%%

%%%The graphics card may provide vram used to display an image on a monitor - that doesn't mean the video card is used for any graphics acceleration. If you look in the system profiler you will find that neither video card will support quartz extreme (Apple's accelerated graphics effects) which actually uses opengl for acceleration. I believe there are some hacks available to get the radeon pci card used for quartz extreme, maybe that can effect opengl as well. I haven't looked into how blender sets up opengl but from what you describe it would appear it gets the first video card (rage 128 pro) and configures itself from that. Maybe there is a way to get a list of cards and work with the best one. %%%

Nathan Letwory commented

2010-09-30 09:59:34 +02:00

%%%Since no quick fix is around soon, moving to our todo list opengl issues section on wiki: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.5/Source/Development/Todo/Install-OS/OpenGL#OS_X%%%

Nathan Letwory commented

2010-09-30 09:59:34 +02:00

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Nathan Letwory closed this issue

2010-09-30 09:59:34 +02:00

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Latest Blender (2.53 Beta) unusable on my G4 Mac due to screen draw speeds. #23292