Enable ffmpeg ProRes codec #35615

Closed
opened 2013-06-03 13:54:25 +02:00 by Sebastian Röthlisberger · 29 comments

%%%Simple 1 Line patch. Enables ProRes codec in ffmpeg (MPEG in Blender interface).

To test it, set File Format to MPEG
Set Format to Quicktime,
set Codec to ProRes

Since ffmpeg in Blender is 0.10 and current ffmpeg version is 0.12 - are there any plans of updating ffmpeg in Blender?

It would allow to use the better ffpeg prores_kostya encoder. Anyway, if it gets updated - i will enable support for it.%%%

%%%Simple 1 Line patch. Enables ProRes codec in ffmpeg (MPEG in Blender interface). To test it, set File Format to MPEG Set Format to Quicktime, set Codec to ProRes Since ffmpeg in Blender is 0.10 and current ffmpeg version is 0.12 - are there any plans of updating ffmpeg in Blender? It would allow to use the better ffpeg prores_kostya encoder. Anyway, if it gets updated - i will enable support for it.%%%

Changed status to: 'Open'

Changed status to: 'Open'

%%%It doesn't seem to be a full patch which enables ProRes support.%%%

%%%It doesn't seem to be a full patch which enables ProRes support.%%%

%%%It does add ProRes as Codec - you can select it in Blender, and it renders.. Quicktime says it's ProRes...

so i guess it works?

%%%

%%%It does add ProRes as Codec - you can select it in Blender, and it renders.. Quicktime says it's ProRes... so i guess it works? %%%

%%%The patch only contains changes to rna_scene.c with new enum item for CODEC_ID_PRORES. I could not see such a codec id constant in our code, so bet the patch wouldn't even compile. Perhaps you forgot to include some more files to the patch.

Further, we really prefer to stick to support of only commonly used interchange video formats to prevent settings from being too much cluttered. So the question here would also be how much commonly used this format for interchange data?%%%

%%%The patch only contains changes to rna_scene.c with new enum item for CODEC_ID_PRORES. I could not see such a codec id constant in our code, so bet the patch wouldn't even compile. Perhaps you forgot to include some more files to the patch. Further, we really prefer to stick to support of only commonly used interchange video formats to prevent settings from being too much cluttered. So the question here would also be how much commonly used this format for interchange data?%%%

%%%as far as i understand the CODEC_ID_PRORES is supported by avcodec.h in ffmpeg. (don't understand too much C myself ;-)
That's why it works as it is. Double-checked again. It compiles and the rendered Video is ProRes 422.

ProRes is a highly common format and i have seen a couple of people that wants it in Blender! Thanks.%%%

%%%as far as i understand the CODEC_ID_PRORES is supported by avcodec.h in ffmpeg. (don't understand too much C myself ;-) That's why it works as it is. Double-checked again. It compiles and the rendered Video is ProRes 422. ProRes is a highly common format and i have seen a couple of people that wants it in Blender! Thanks.%%%

%%%Hi Sergej and others,

i've opened a Thread on BA on this:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?294762-ProRes-support-Need-your-voice!

There seems to be some legal issue with ffmpeg ProRes on Windows/Linux. So don't apply it atm.
I will need to look into this first. If anyone knows more about this please let me know.%%%

%%%Hi Sergej and others, i've opened a Thread on BA on this: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?294762-ProRes-support-Need-your-voice! There seems to be some legal issue with ffmpeg ProRes on Windows/Linux. So don't apply it atm. I will need to look into this first. If anyone knows more about this please let me know.%%%

%%%Two things:

  1. CODEC_ID_* in fact goes from FFmpeg header, not a blender one. Crazy, but that's how it works. So guess patch is in fact doing what it's supposed to do.
  2. Tested here on linux and FFmpeg configuration told "License: GPL version 2 or later" and ProRes seems to be enabled. So don't think it's big issue?

And as for update -- we're using FFmpeg ~1.0 on linux/osx. Windows really needs to be updated but that's damn heck of not trivial task. Will look into it later.%%%

%%%Two things: 1. CODEC_ID_* in fact goes from FFmpeg header, not a blender one. Crazy, but that's how it works. So guess patch is in fact doing what it's supposed to do. 2. Tested here on linux and FFmpeg configuration told "License: GPL version 2 or later" and ProRes seems to be enabled. So don't think it's big issue? And as for update -- we're using FFmpeg ~1.0 on linux/osx. Windows really needs to be updated but that's damn heck of not trivial task. Will look into it later.%%%

%%%Yes, it does what it's supposed to do ;-) I was actually astonished myself ;-)

ffmpeg Version 1.2 would be great, has a better ProRes Codec, but i can see it's difficult thing to do.

The legal issue is not ffmpeg, but the way they ffmpeg got/does this ProRes encoding. quote: ". The group behind FFMBC have reverse-engineered the codec themselves, which places them at risk of legal action (particularly in the USA where software patents apply)"

I don't really think it's a big issue - but you never know... I would like to read some more into it before putting Blender at risk ;-)

What i'm thinking of as well - since it's perfectly legal on osx - Do you see any issue on enabling it only on osx? Blender "politics" wise only one platform) and coding?%%%

%%%Yes, it does what it's supposed to do ;-) I was actually astonished myself ;-) ffmpeg Version 1.2 would be great, has a better ProRes Codec, but i can see it's difficult thing to do. The legal issue is not ffmpeg, but the way they ffmpeg got/does this ProRes encoding. quote: ". The group behind FFMBC have reverse-engineered the codec themselves, which places them at risk of legal action (particularly in the USA where software patents apply)" I don't really think it's a big issue - but you never know... I would like to read some more into it before putting Blender at risk ;-) What i'm thinking of as well - since it's perfectly legal on osx - Do you see any issue on enabling it only on osx? Blender "politics" wise only one platform) and coding?%%%

%%%I would rather consult Ton about such a patch then.

Unfortunately, i'm leaving to a science conference in neighbor city here for the rest of the week, so not sure how much time i'll be able to spend on blender. So please be patient with the info about this patch..%%%

%%%I would rather consult Ton about such a patch then. Unfortunately, i'm leaving to a science conference in neighbor city here for the rest of the week, so not sure how much time i'll be able to spend on blender. So please be patient with the info about this patch..%%%

%%%i've looked into this "legal issue" thing. Not much of a concern imo. Basically the situation is the same as the already enabled H.264 and MPEG-4. the http://www.ffmpeg.org/legal.html
says: "A lot of legal questions surrounding patents arise when discussing multimedia technology. This mini-FAQ attempts to address these issues. Note that much of this discussion is based on precedent, or what has happened in the past under similar circumstances. Very little consideration is given to what could happen. If you use your imagination, you can visualize any dire scenario and cease doing any productive work.

Q: Does FFmpeg use patented algorithms?
A: We do not know, we are not lawyers so we are not qualified to answer this. Also we have never read patents to implement any part of FFmpeg, so even if we were qualified we could not answer it as we do not know what is patented. Furthermore the sheer number of software patents makes it impossible to read them all so no one (lawyer or not) could answer such a question with a definite no, those who do lie. What we do know is that various standards FFmpeg supports contain vague hints that any conforming implementation might be subject to some patent rights in some jurisdictions, examples for such statements are:
For H.264:

ITU draws attention to the possibility that the practice or implementation of this Recommendation may involve the use of a claimed Intellectual Property Right. ITU takes no position concerning the evidence, validity or applicability of claimed Intellectual Property Rights, whether asserted by ITU members or others outside of the Recommendation development process.

And for MPEG-4:

The user's attention is called to the possibility that, for some of the processes specified in this part of ISO/IEC 14496, conformance with this specification may require use of an invention covered by patent rights. By publication of this part of ISO/IEC 14496, no position is taken with respect to the validity of this claim or of any patent rights in connection therewith.

Q: Is it safe to use such patented algorithms?
A: Patent laws vary wildly between jurisdictions, and in many countries patents on algorithms are not recognized. Plus the use of patents to prevent the usage of a format or codec on a specific operating system or together with specific other software might violate antitrust laws. So whether you are safe or not depends on where you live and how judges interpret the law in your jurisdiction.

Q: Bottom line: Should I be worried about patent issues if I use FFmpeg?
A: Are you a private user working with FFmpeg for your own personal purposes? If so, there is remarkably little reason to be concerned. Are you using FFmpeg in a commercial software product? Read on to the next question...

Q: Is it perfectly alright to incorporate the whole FFmpeg core into my own commercial product?
A: You might have a problem here. There have been cases where companies have used FFmpeg in their products. These companies found out that once you start trying to make money from patented technologies, the owners of the patents will come after their licensing fees. Notably, MPEG LA is vigilant and diligent about collecting for MPEG-related technologies."

further i have not found a single case where apple has sued/infringed somebody about prores or codecs. So i think it is safe to enable. Only question for me is if it works on windows with the older ffmpeg?%%%

%%%i've looked into this "legal issue" thing. Not much of a concern imo. Basically the situation is the same as the already enabled H.264 and MPEG-4. the http://www.ffmpeg.org/legal.html says: "A lot of legal questions surrounding patents arise when discussing multimedia technology. This mini-FAQ attempts to address these issues. Note that much of this discussion is based on precedent, or what has happened in the past under similar circumstances. Very little consideration is given to what could happen. If you use your imagination, you can visualize any dire scenario and cease doing any productive work. Q: Does FFmpeg use patented algorithms? A: We do not know, we are not lawyers so we are not qualified to answer this. Also we have never read patents to implement any part of FFmpeg, so even if we were qualified we could not answer it as we do not know what is patented. Furthermore the sheer number of software patents makes it impossible to read them all so no one (lawyer or not) could answer such a question with a definite no, those who do lie. What we do know is that various standards FFmpeg supports contain vague hints that any conforming implementation might be subject to some patent rights in some jurisdictions, examples for such statements are: For H.264: ITU draws attention to the possibility that the practice or implementation of this Recommendation may involve the use of a claimed Intellectual Property Right. ITU takes no position concerning the evidence, validity or applicability of claimed Intellectual Property Rights, whether asserted by ITU members or others outside of the Recommendation development process. And for MPEG-4: The user's attention is called to the possibility that, for some of the processes specified in this part of ISO/IEC 14496, conformance with this specification may require use of an invention covered by patent rights. By publication of this part of ISO/IEC 14496, no position is taken with respect to the validity of this claim or of any patent rights in connection therewith. Q: Is it safe to use such patented algorithms? A: Patent laws vary wildly between jurisdictions, and in many countries patents on algorithms are not recognized. Plus the use of patents to prevent the usage of a format or codec on a specific operating system or together with specific other software might violate antitrust laws. So whether you are safe or not depends on where you live and how judges interpret the law in your jurisdiction. Q: Bottom line: Should I be worried about patent issues if I use FFmpeg? A: Are you a private user working with FFmpeg for your own personal purposes? If so, there is remarkably little reason to be concerned. Are you using FFmpeg in a commercial software product? Read on to the next question... Q: Is it perfectly alright to incorporate the whole FFmpeg core into my own commercial product? A: You might have a problem here. There have been cases where companies have used FFmpeg in their products. These companies found out that once you start trying to make money from patented technologies, the owners of the patents will come after their licensing fees. Notably, MPEG LA is vigilant and diligent about collecting for MPEG-related technologies." further i have not found a single case where apple has sued/infringed somebody about prores or codecs. So i think it is safe to enable. Only question for me is if it works on windows with the older ffmpeg?%%%

%%%I think there are enough people that would welcome ProRes support.

See BA Thread:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?294762-ProRes-support-Need-your-voice!%%%

%%%I think there are enough people that would welcome ProRes support. See BA Thread: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?294762-ProRes-support-Need-your-voice!%%%

%%%Hey, thanks for the information. I'll re-read it more careful later this weekend. Will also look into updating FFmpeg libs on win -- it became a bit of out of date which is not good anyway. And i've got other stuff to be enabled there actually.

Pardon for the delays -- bug tracker keeps us busy..%%%

%%%Hey, thanks for the information. I'll re-read it more careful later this weekend. Will also look into updating FFmpeg libs on win -- it became a bit of out of date which is not good anyway. And i've got other stuff to be enabled there actually. Pardon for the delays -- bug tracker keeps us busy..%%%

%%%nothing happening here anymore? I still would like to have prores though...%%%

%%%nothing happening here anymore? I still would like to have prores though...%%%

Added subscriber: @AndrewButtery

Added subscriber: @AndrewButtery

Hi,

Is there any movement on this one? I've done some work for my brother (a professional video editor) and he has asked for the output to be in PRO RES LT... the change mentioned seems pretty minor - is there any reason why this can't be committed?

PRO RES support seems like a step towards taking Blender to a level of maturity where it will be used by artists who want to use it in a professional environmnet.

  • andrew
Hi, Is there any movement on this one? I've done some work for my brother (a professional video editor) and he has asked for the output to be in PRO RES LT... the change mentioned seems pretty minor - is there any reason why this can't be committed? PRO RES support seems like a step towards taking Blender to a level of maturity where it will be used by artists who want to use it in a professional environmnet. - andrew

I'm still not sure if it is a good idea to enable this...

"Guys, the problem is not enabling ProRES, but distributing it. Apple is quite diligent to suing anyone distributing their patented codecs in the US, even if the software producing it is not apple property (Apple vs Sorenson comes to my mind, maybe there are others). Even if BF is not a US based organization, lawyers can be very creative if they got some money, and we already know that Apple has plenty of it.

Probably, is one of these cases that some devs should be happy not to be NorthAmerican citizen."

So i would suggest to let this one go - to not implement this Patch into Trunk.

I'm still not sure if it is a good idea to enable this... "Guys, the problem is not enabling ProRES, but distributing it. Apple is quite diligent to suing anyone distributing their patented codecs in the US, even if the software producing it is not apple property (Apple vs Sorenson comes to my mind, maybe there are others). Even if BF is not a US based organization, lawyers can be very creative if they got some money, and we already know that Apple has plenty of it. Probably, is one of these cases that some devs should be happy not to be NorthAmerican citizen." So i would suggest to let this one go - to not implement this Patch into Trunk.

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

@SebastianRothlisberger, i would just close the task then. Guess we've got quite a few of interchange formats in blender which would satisfy most of pipelines already.

The idea is to support minimal subset of really crucial interchange codecs and don't worry about others. Codecs are such a mess really, with all this possible corruptions and so.. Limiting number of codecs we support would free some time for implementing fancier features :)

@SebastianRothlisberger, i would just close the task then. Guess we've got quite a few of interchange formats in blender which would satisfy most of pipelines already. The idea is to support minimal subset of really crucial interchange codecs and don't worry about others. Codecs are such a mess really, with all this possible corruptions and so.. Limiting number of codecs we support would free some time for implementing fancier features :)

Added subscriber: @michaelw

Added subscriber: @michaelw

Sergey, it's closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
To be consistent with disallowing pro res support you might as well remove ffmpeg from blender because of the legal grey areas in most of the codecs.

And pro res would be extremely useful to many.

Sergey, it's closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. To be consistent with disallowing pro res support you might as well remove ffmpeg from blender because of the legal grey areas in most of the codecs. And pro res would be extremely useful to many.

As mentioned in my previous comment, legal grey areas is not the main reason why we don't like more codecs being considered officially supported. If you enable some codec, you need to make sure blender renders to it correct and it could be picked by another software. And FFmpeg is not the most stable library in this regard -- upgrading it might solve some bugs and introduce new one. Dealing with this is rather really time consuming for blender developers and even investigating bugs caused by regressions in FFmpeg keeps us from implementing really useful things.

So as mentioned above, officially we only support minimal set of stable interchange format codecs, and even the current state of the codecs and settings in blender is to be revisited from scratch.

As mentioned in my previous comment, legal grey areas is not the main reason why we don't like more codecs being considered officially supported. If you enable some codec, you need to make sure blender renders to it correct and it could be picked by another software. And FFmpeg is not the most stable library in this regard -- upgrading it might solve some bugs and introduce new one. Dealing with this is rather really time consuming for blender developers and even investigating bugs caused by regressions in FFmpeg keeps us from implementing really useful things. So as mentioned above, officially we only support minimal set of stable interchange format codecs, and even the current state of the codecs and settings in blender is to be revisited from scratch.
Contributor

Added subscriber: @p2or

Added subscriber: @p2or

Added subscriber: @Ulf3000

Added subscriber: @Ulf3000

In #35615#254133, @Sergey wrote:
So as mentioned above, officially we only support minimal set of stable interchange format codecs, and even the current state of the codecs and settings in blender is to be revisited from scratch.

sorry for bumping
but is there a project group for this? becasue the output properties -> output panel is one of those forgotten areas in blender. And i could help since i know many of the command lines of ffmpeg and the different presets etc.

because stable interchange formats are not divx, theora , mpg1 , mpg2 ,DV, FFMPEG codec 1 or huffyuf, which are still in the list.

The DNxHD option didnt render for quite some time.

Huffyuff was long ago advanced by lagarith.

the other ones are also just dinosaurs.


We need at least one good interchange format with alpha support video codec. ProRes 4444 and 4444HQ are the main intermediate formats clients ask for becasue its so well supported on mac, and now with the m1 pro this situation will even widen as they have now hardware de and encoders on their chips and everyone will use them so maybe the situation should be revised on how important this codec is.

The other great option is the cineform codec , its on par with prores 4444 basically , supports alpha channel, 12 bit, and 3d , absolutely stable , the files size is smaller than png and performance is amazing, its opensource too, its on par with prores imo. The best option for any home producer.

The common modern delivery codecs are AV1 ( Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.) VP9(youtube), h264(), h265() Possibly with nvenc support(becasue many blender users have a gtx or rtx card).

The list should have a seperator between intermediate/interchange codecs and delivery codecs. The list could be smaller than now but much cleaner with better options.


Then theres the last big problem: Mux Rate , Mux Packetsize, buffer .. those are values which shouldnt even be touched. ffmpeg does this internally.

max and min Bitrate is also a bit oldschool as the codecs all come with stable and representative presets ,

an important setting is color space(4:2:0,4:2:2,4:4:4, rgb(a), (a)yuv which isnt exposed through the UI.


The last thing is, now that Blender has set a priority on making the VSE a competitive video editor, it would even be good if people could render directly to their own installed codec , many TV stations use specific pre-delivery codecs , being able to render to their own codec from blender vse with convinience instead of writing a script to render to images and then convert via command line or watchfolders is imo important, especially for a video editor. The dnxhd bug should also be fixed for the upcoming vse overhaul. also a very common format need in tons of productions.

One look into the Davinchi Resolve or Adobe Media Encoder Export presets should give a pretty good glimpse into the important and common formats. Not everything but most of it can also be achieved with ffmpeg(although the list could be smaller).

> In #35615#254133, @Sergey wrote: > So as mentioned above, officially we only support minimal set of stable interchange format codecs, and even the current state of the codecs and settings in blender is to be revisited from scratch. sorry for bumping but is there a project group for this? becasue the output properties -> output panel is one of those forgotten areas in blender. And i could help since i know many of the command lines of ffmpeg and the different presets etc. because stable interchange formats are not divx, theora , mpg1 , mpg2 ,DV, FFMPEG codec 1 or huffyuf, which are still in the list. The DNxHD option didnt render for quite some time. Huffyuff was long ago advanced by lagarith. the other ones are also just dinosaurs. -------------------------------------------- We need at least one good interchange format with alpha support video codec. ProRes 4444 and 4444HQ are the main intermediate formats clients ask for becasue its so well supported on mac, and now with the m1 pro this situation will even widen as they have now hardware de and encoders on their chips and everyone will use them so maybe the situation should be revised on how important this codec is. The other great option is the cineform codec , its on par with prores 4444 basically , supports alpha channel, 12 bit, and 3d , absolutely stable , the files size is smaller than png and performance is amazing, its opensource too, its on par with prores imo. The best option for any home producer. The common modern delivery codecs are AV1 ( Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.) VP9(youtube), h264(*), h265(*) Possibly with nvenc support(becasue many blender users have a gtx or rtx card). The list should have a seperator between intermediate/interchange codecs and delivery codecs. The list could be smaller than now but much cleaner with better options. ---------------------- Then theres the last big problem: Mux Rate , Mux Packetsize, buffer .. those are values which shouldnt even be touched. ffmpeg does this internally. max and min Bitrate is also a bit oldschool as the codecs all come with stable and representative presets , an important setting is color space(4:2:0,4:2:2,4:4:4, rgb(a), (a)yuv which isnt exposed through the UI. ----------------------- The last thing is, now that Blender has set a priority on making the VSE a competitive video editor, it would even be good if people could render directly to their own installed codec , many TV stations use specific pre-delivery codecs , being able to render to their own codec from blender vse with convinience instead of writing a script to render to images and then convert via command line or watchfolders is imo important, especially for a video editor. The dnxhd bug should also be fixed for the upcoming vse overhaul. also a very common format need in tons of productions. One look into the Davinchi Resolve or Adobe Media Encoder Export presets should give a pretty good glimpse into the important and common formats. Not everything but most of it can also be achieved with ffmpeg(although the list could be smaller).

Added subscriber: @MatthewHoecker

Added subscriber: @MatthewHoecker

Just adding that with Apple now a supporting member of the Blender Foundation, perhaps an agreement could be reached, or at the very least, the threat of patent lawsuit is more negligible? ProRes has become the industry standard for an intermediate codec, and it is now supported in Adobe Premiere on PCs. In terms of usability, I haven't found anything that can match it for it's flexibility and near universal support. I always render from Blender to an image sequence and then immediately conform to ProRes for editing.

Just adding that with Apple now a supporting member of the Blender Foundation, perhaps an agreement could be reached, or at the very least, the threat of patent lawsuit is more negligible? ProRes has become the industry standard for an intermediate codec, and it is now supported in Adobe Premiere on PCs. In terms of usability, I haven't found anything that can match it for it's flexibility and near universal support. I always render from Blender to an image sequence and then immediately conform to ProRes for editing.

Added subscriber: @zachnfine

Added subscriber: @zachnfine

Apple has deprecated the Quicktime Animation codec as it depends on old 32-bit QuickTime libraries. But they've developed Prores4444 as its replacement and it is very widely used.

Apple has deprecated the Quicktime Animation codec as it depends on old 32-bit QuickTime libraries. But they've developed Prores4444 as its replacement and it is very widely used.

Added subscriber: @SteffenD

Added subscriber: @SteffenD
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Reference: blender/blender#35615
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