Page MenuHome

x no longer prompts for confirmation
Closed, ResolvedPublic

Description

the hotkey x no longer asks for confirmation. Can we please get a option in the System preferences to enable / disable this option like the prompt to quit option in the system prefs.. Having the hotkey right next to the z button means that some of our artists are accidentally deleting objects without realising it.

Event Timeline

This was removed because we no longer need it. Every time you remove an object, you get a info message in the Info header now.

You can use undo to bring it back.

I think the issue with the x key is problematic too. It's very easy to accidentally hit, and you use X to constrain too, so you are trained to hit X to do constructive things. And it's right next to Z, S and C which are some of the most common keys in Blender.

That is why most apps don't use X, but Del or Backspace. These keys are much harder to accidentally hit.

Here's what I think we should do. Either:

  1. Make an exception for all destructive operators and bring back confirmation on those
  2. Remove X to delete and change it to Del (and Backspace for laptop users)

I believe either one of these will solve the issue.

I vote for the second option then (remove X and change to Del/Backspace).

"This was removed because we no longer need it. Every time you remove an object, you get a info message in the Info header now."

@Thomas Dinges (dingto) It is needed, especially for large scenes... When dealing with large scenes which we do on a regular basis (we are talking scenes > 400mb, with more then 50,000 objects etc.etc.), any sort of adding in / removing of objects takes between 20-60 seconds to compute... which means at the moment, if we accidentally hit x.... it will take 60 seconds before we get blender back, then we go into the undo menu and undo the previous operation and wait another 60 seconds...

As for changing the hotkey, I am a fan of the x delete button, purely because when you are working away, especially modelling where you are adding / deleting very often, you want all the hotkeys that you commonly use on one side of the keyboard... which puts x in that category... moving it to the other side of the keyboard will slow down the process... This default doesnt matter all that much as we can always remap it... but having the prompt to delete option is very valuable for production environments. a preferences option like prompt to quit would be ideal.

NG (NGMAT) added a subscriber: NG (NGMAT).EditedDec 13 2013, 2:55 PM

@Carlo Andreacchio (candreacchio) , perhaps I misunderstand, but as far as can see, "x" delete is still available in edit mode, so i'm not sure how this affects the modelling process exactly?

At the moment I prefer to remove x shortcut from object mode, and just leave it as delete or backspace. This will save those accidental deletions.

@NG (NGMAT): Only having x to delete in edit mode and not in object mode is inconsistent. Users will then expect X to delete everywhere.

Better to move Delete to Del and Backspace for all modes.

@William Reynish (billrey) yes sorry, that was an error in my thinking. Consistency is key. I agree it would have to change everywhere.

Agree on removing X from the default keymap. Delete on Del is already there, so it's only duplicating functionality.

I would be more for removing 'Del' from the keymap over the x key as it is never used.. on the other side of the keyboard means the left hand of the artist has to shift twice, once to hit the key, once to move back to the normal position (which is on the left side of the keyboard)

If you look at all the modelling manipulations, theres a (select all) e (extrude), g (move, not to mention x y and z all within reach of the same position)) r (rotate) s (scale) , f (fill), ctrl r (loop cut), ctrl (snap to)... etcetc... With x being delete, it makes the modelling workflow very fast...

Seeing as we are talking about consistency under blender... In edit mode, we have a list that comes up asking what do we want to delete, whether its verticies, faces, edges etcetcetc... shouldnt we have a list that comes up under object mode as well? a list that says what do you want to delete in object mode, do you want to delete the object, object & data, object animation, object constraints, object modifiers etc.etc... this would be extremely useful

Right now there is a disconnect with how you delete stuff, in edit mode it is x (or del) + a mouse click, in object mode, its only x.

Mind you, there is a inconsistency with edit mode as well, if you are editing a armature no confirmation box appears.

Video sequence editor we also have a confirmation box asking whether we want to delete the current strips (list could include delete effects, delete transformations, delete strips)

Node editor has no confirmation box (could be delete nodes, delete links to nodes, reset node)

NLA editor has no confirmation box and no info box at all.

Graph editor has no confirmation box but info box up the top

Ideally, it would be nice for each person to be able to turn on/off confirmation boxes for each editor... but consistancy is needed, having it only for edit mode is a big disconnect.

Carlo

@Carlo Andreacchio (candreacchio):

The issue is this:
We'd like a workflow where the user isn't constantly being nagged with confirmations when performing an action. This is why the confirmations were removed. It's faster and nicer this way. However, the X key becomes an issue because it's too easy to accidentally hit. You end up deleting objects accidentally without noticing. Backspace is harder to accidentally hit, and it's no problem to reach for users, just as it's no problem to reach backspace when editing text. That's why I think delete should be moved to backspace (and Del)

Two parts to the argument:

  • Authentication boxes
  • X key vs Del

I think these are two separate issues.

Authentication Boxes

They allow the user to confirm / deny a action, the one in question is the authentication of the deleting, a destructive process. Many applications ask (windows does it, rm does it, many others do) whether or not the user wants to delete. The problem our artists are having is that they are accidentally deleting, and if it is a small scene, objects randomly disappear. if its a large scene, they are unable to work for a good couple of minutes, (large scenes when adding / removing objects takes ages).

More over, as mentioned before, consistency with edit mode is also needed. edit mode has a nice option list of options you could do with the current selection. Instead of removing functionality, i propose we extend the functionality so that this menu is also present for all modes.

You mention it is faster... Maybe for certain people, however dealing with people who use this day in day out, the x + left click does not slow down the process...It is part of the flow of the program.

X vs Del

Editing text is significantly different to modelling / node editing. How often are you editing text with just one hand on the keyboard & one hand on the mouse... Just writing this response i have not touched the mouse once. However, when I am modelling, I have my left hand on the keyboard and right hand on the mouse....

Having the key as delete, whilst modelling / node editing (which are both highly use the delete function) would mean one of two things, either i release my hand from the mouse and hit the delete key, or i have to move my left hand all the way over to the delete key and press it....It is a break of thought, a break of flow.... Something you try to avoid when doing something artistic. If it were to change the default I would switch back in a heart beat.

There are a few solutions, of course I would prefer how it was previously... but there are a few other options

  • having a system preference option to turn on / off the authentication dialogue boxes
  • having a 'special delete' function which brings up the authentication boxes (that way people can change the hotkeys themselves)
  • move the hotkey for instantenous delete to something like alt+x instead of x, and keep x with a authentication box

@Carlo Andreacchio (candreacchio): I don't think any of your suggestions will work because they all require user customization. Blender should work well out the box, and you shouldn't have to customize Blender to make it work nicely. Adding a preference for this is a cop out, not a real solution.

Having two different delete features is also a cop out, a poor compromise which just adds complexity.

Here's why i think moving Delete to Backspace is the best solution:

  • It's fast, because you don't have a confirmation popup
  • Consistency with other apps,
  • It's out of the way so you won't accidentally delete objects

I agree on removing X from the default keymap and going with DEL instead. I already plan to do this when I finish my proposal for the new keymap | T37417

Guys, please, either remove XKey or leave delete popup in object mode.
As i often delete objects and i don't look at log. This is very important thing!

@Jonathan Williamson (carter2422) i highly suggest you look into a moving the delete key (whether its x or another) to the left side of the keyboard so that the flow of the operations is not broken.

@William Reynish (billrey) I was trying to find a middle ground where everyone will be fine.

I have another proposal, to have a 'authentication dialogue' as a python script... Proof of concept here -- http://www.pasteall.org/48051

Also remember that consistency within blender is also important... so what will happen to the edit mode delete dialogue box?

Removing X is ridiculous. The delete and dissolve (ctrl-x) functions are often used in bursts where you press them every couple seconds interlaced with other operators. This would very quickly cause fatigue and annoyance while editing meshes.

In object mode it isn't as necessary to have the delete operator on hand, but removing it from object mode and leaving it in edit mode introduces inconsistency.

In addition, the delete key is often placed in annoying places on keyboards and so shouldn't be used for any vital operators, along with backspace, tilde, backslash, home, end, page up, page down, insert, pause, scroll lock and print. Keyboards used to have a standard layout but those are increasingly difficult to come by.

I also want to put up my vote against removing X from the default map. I use it also all the time, especially in EditMode. Deleting EdgeLoops, dissolving verts, etc. Putting it on the right side of the keyboard is really not ideal.
And the rationale that it would "fix" the issue of accidentally deleting stuff because of the new way of not showing a popup menu is not really convincing. That sounds more like a fix for a fix.

I have never (before) heard anyone say that a keyboard shortcut is bad because they need to move their hand too far. Are we really THAT lazy? Moving your hand 20cm once in a while will surely not cause "fatigue". Well, if it does, it's high time to stand up from the computer, go for a walk, see the world outside :)
I feel the arguments against removing X are more a resistance to change and having to relearn old Blender habits (yes, I've also used X for over ten years).

I would personally also set it to DELETE, which is actually THE REASON for the key being on the keyboard. Otherwise please add the confirm dialog back.

@Sebastian Koenig (sebastian_k): I think it's more appropriate to consider these issues as linked. X-key with no confirmation is rather scary and destructive. Agreed that this is no good.

That's why I see two possible solutions: Either to put back confirmation dialogs on destructive ops only, or move delete out of the way so you don't hit it accidentally. Both these have advantages/disadvantages:

  • Advantage of old X-key was that it was easy to reach
  • Disadvantage of old X-key was that in Object mode you had a confirmation, which was annoying
  • Advantage of Backspace is that you are not likely to hit it accidentally, and you can then use it with no popup
  • Disadvantage of Backspace is that it's harder to reach

It's one of those things that we have to go one way or the other, but we can't really go down the middle.

The nice thing about the X-key solution (with popup) is that in Edit mode there's a menu that appears anyway with delete options, so there's a popup there anyway.

(sorry for the screwed up comment before)

@zsolt: this has nothing to do with lazy, but with efficient workflow.

@William Reynish (billrey): yeah, that's why i would prefer to put back the delete confirm. there is a dialogue in edit mode anyway, so having it in object mode would only be consistent. And having to confirm something like deleting is really not that bad.

I'm ok with adding confirmation back for the delete tools, if it's actually leading to accidental deleting and people miss the info message. It's not really slowing anyone down to have the menu there I think.

@Sebastian Koenig (sebastian_k) @Brecht Van Lommel (brecht): I am ok with that too.

From the perspective of Object mode only, I think moving to Backspace (with no popup) is probably a nicer solution, but taking Edit mode into account I think it makes sense to stay with the X key + popup. Moving to Backspace is only really nice if you don't have a confirmation or menu.

Cool. :)
Then how about keeping the x with popup but adding a "force delete" on Backspace? Not sure if that's just another hackish option, but that way we'd have both.

backspace "hard" delete sounds good to me.

@Brecht Van Lommel (brecht): Thank you so much for bringing it back. Many modelers know it is fast to reach X while the other hand rest on the mouse. One more time thank you :)

Uh, don't thank me yet, I only gave my opinion, I didn't decide anything.

I'm also okay with bringing back confirmations for Delete operations, if we're keeping the X key. Although I can't help but feel that collectively, we just don't like old habits being changed. As a modeler, I use X constantly, but not nearly so often as other things like F, W, CTRL + E. X is prime keyboard space that I think should be given over to additive processes rather than subtractive. Unless you're having trouble with a model, you'll be adding things far more often than removing them.

With that said, one additional option that hasn't been talked about, but that Nathan Vegdahl has been exploring, is to make delete more context sensitive. I don't know if this is a good route yet, as I haven't tested it, but for those people wanting faster delete it's something that can be looked at.

Going back to the original request, perhaps a nice compromise is available. Leave the current behavior in place: x to delete, confirmation on by default. Then create an option in User Preferences to turn off delete confirmations. In other words, make x-confirmation opt-out rather than opt-in, and leave it flexible. That way those who want the slightly faster workflow can have it, but the vast majority of people won't panic because their stuff is disappearing.

@Sebastian Koenig (sebastian_k): we could do that, yes. So Del/Backspace does an instant delete, but X spawns a popup menu.

Backspace is already used in other areas of Blender as Delete or Clear, so I think it'd be good to make it delete items too.

I agree with @Kyle Horseman (KHorseman)'s suggestion. This is actually what other apps do, they have a checkbox inside the dialog box that says "Don't show again". It would be the standard way of dealing with this.

Hi all,

It has been a week... Can we get a commit that brings back the confirmation box?

Regards

Carlo

I restored the popups now. I didn't do the backspace/delete vs. X key popup thing though, this will need keymap changes and we can do those separately.

@Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) thanks for reverting the popup. But now the popup appears even if there are no selected objects. Can you fix it?
As previously there was no popup with nothing selected.

Thanks.

It's the same as in previous versions, in 2.69 there is also no popup if nothing is selected. It might be nice to improve that once, but I wouldn't consider it a bug.

@Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) i have just downloaded nightly build and what i get:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY-iqIH2lxw&feature=youtu.be

Linux, 64bit

Should i report it as a bug?

It's the same as in previous versions, in 2.69 there is also no popup if nothing is selected. It might be nice to improve that once, but I wouldn't consider it a bug.

I'm not sure what I have to clarify, no it's not a bug.

ok, sorry for bothering and my bad english. :)