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Usability issues with old group operators
Confirmed, NormalPublicDESIGN


Blender Version
Broken: 2.79, 2.8x

Short description of error

When using linked objects, all the Group commands [Remove From Group / Remove From All Groups / Add Selected To Active Group / Remove Selected From Active Group] except [Create New Group (Ctrl G)], do nothing

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

In my particular usage, I link a scene from one file into my main scene, afterwards I create a [New scene with Link Objects] from the Linked scene.

I can Create Groups by selected objects, and I can remove the group from the object in the Object Properties tab but the only way to remove multiple groups is through python script or deleting the group itself.

Related Objects

Event Timeline

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trying my luck here:

  • the mentioned group commands 'do nothing' because they check for selected_editable_bases [editable is not the case for linked stuff]
  • If you make those operators work on selected_bases [leave out the 'editable'] then your usecase becomes possible
  • removing the group from the Object Properties tab [X operator] dosent do the editable check afaics

However, it seems mandatory (I think) to distinct between groups defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile and groups defined locally.
e.g. even now it is possible to remove a group defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile from an object [which doesnt really make sense because that change will be lost on file reload - another 'bug' if you will]

From an uneducated first look a good solution would be to permit group operators to work on groups defined locally and prohibit to work on groups defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile, but need to have another look or chat with @Bastien Montagne (mont29), maybe?

The reason I even bothered doing groups here is because when you link a scene, the groups aren't linked as well, so either I can link all the objects to the new scene, or I can link the empty-group instead.

just had the same problem, it's a mess indeed, would be good to have a look. I agree it should be possible to add linked objects to local groups and forbid modifying groups coming from the linked file (and when user try to do so, it should say why it's not allowed)

@Philipp Oeser (lichtwerk) actually, why is this bug not confirmed?

Just wanted to file a similar bug (I am using Blender 2.8 Alpha 2):

When selecting multiple object e.g. Lamp and Cube in the standard scene and I press Ctrl+G it prompts me to type a new collection name. But that's about it. I can enter something but hitting enter leaves to popup open and no new collection appears.

(I would fix it if you can gave me a hint where to look in the code)


@Benjamin Neumann (BeNe), Ctrl+G creates collection not part of the scene, similar to groups in 2.8. If you want to create a collection in the scene, use M key.

The usability of this will be improved still.

@Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) Okay that the 2 are different is known but still if you hit Ctrl+G it opens a UI and asks you for a collection. THAT is the weird part. So if I understand you it should only group them (as in 2.7) but NOT create a new colleciton.

didn't collections replace the groups? i mean. they are kinda the same thing now? U could have unlimited amount of groups, and u could also instace groups.. and u could also have group inside group and u could also link stuff..

so why the hell we even have now group? i mean isn't that a collection now? i am lost.

@Maciej Jutrzenka (Kramon), @Benjamin Neumann (BeNe) : this task is specifically for group operations dealing with linked (from other blend files) objects.

Seeing a couple of other related tasks for grouping/collections in 2.8 (see e.g T58234, T58258, T58287), lets continue discussions there...

@Brecht Van Lommel (brecht): not sure T59707 is the same issue? This report deals with group operators acting on groups/collections from linked files (doesnt seem to be the case for T59707...)
This is more for T55099, no?

@Philipp Oeser (lichtwerk) i think brecht, is just merging.. all collection related stuff to one place so it is easy to get control. as Blender 2.8 beta seams more like alpha not acctualy full feature beta as usually beta stands for that... there is a lot of stuff to be yet designed... so... it is a mess at least for me. and the nameing 2.8 as beta for me is confusing.

Sebastian Parborg (zeddb) lowered the priority of this task from 90 to 50.

@Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) I can reproduce this, but I'm a bit unsure what the plan is for this. So feel free to change the prio etc.

Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) renamed this task from Add/Remove Groups Not Working with Linked Objects to Usability issues with old group operators.Jun 6 2019, 2:18 PM
Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) removed Brecht Van Lommel (brecht) as the assignee of this task.

We will tackle this at some point, but it won't necessarily be me.

Delo Lat (edisto) added a comment.EditedAug 28 2019, 5:24 AM

As a suggestion for operations in outline -> view layer; isn't it easier to just create a new Collection then add the relative object as a child of that collection when the user hits ctrl + g. If the name doesn't exist then create new collection, if the name exist just add to already created collection in the outliner -> view layer.

Dalai Felinto (dfelinto) changed the subtype of this task from "Report" to "Bug".

This was already an issue with 2.7x, but now that groups became collections we need indeed to polish how these things work. For example, it is strange to "unlink" an object from a collection if the collection is linked to the scene (that will often make the object disappear altogether).

Bastien Montagne (mont29) changed the subtype of this task from "Bug" to "Design".Feb 19 2020, 3:36 PM

Again not a bug, this needs design even before actual implementation...

the ctrl+g does make new collection now.. but it is invisible collection.. like it shows up in properties of an object and blender DNA etc... but dosn't showup in outliner... Another thing that is broken in Blender is that... when u have collections n stuff.. and u export it via alembic.. the hierarchy of the tree is not taken in to consideration it is all exported like there would be no collections.

why developers just don't replace. M shortcut with ctrl+g... or just make actual groups... that work correctly..

Alaska (Alaska) added a comment.EditedApr 29 2020, 1:34 PM

@Dalai Felinto (dfelinto) and @Bastien Montagne (mont29) I was redirected here by @Philipp Oeser (lichtwerk) from task T76013.

In that task I asked the question

"Control-G" adds the selected objects to a new collection, but this collection is not added to the current scene. Is this a bug or working as intended?

I ask because I believe if this feature is working as intended, the information should be shared in the Blender manual. Without mention of this limitation in the manual, it can be confusing for new users. However, I understand that these keyboard shortcuts and the way things work will be re-designed in the near future. So I am hesitant in updating that part of the manual to describe the limitation if it's going to be fixed.

What are your thoughts on this. Should I update the manual to describe the limitation or leave it in it's current state so it doesn't need to be updated once this part of Blender has been reworked?

The page in the manual I'm referring too is /scene_layout/collections/collections (

@Alaska (Alaska) you can update the manual for the current 2.83, if this is changed, it will already be 2.9x.

I wouldn't call it a "limitation", just describe how it works, mention another way to create a collection: "M" key (Move to Collection) > "New Collection".

As I Just mentioned in my merged report immediately above T76705, this seems to cause issues for rigid body workflow. The auto created 'Groups' which are effectively collections (RigidBodyWorld and RigidBodyConstraints) don't make it to the current scene by default, and I've ended up with all sorts of weirdness as a result. To me it seems that the groups should just be new collections within the current scene.

In other words, it's not just an issue for manually creating Collections or using linked groups.

Should I create a new report for rigid bodies operations creating Collections that aren't linked to the scene?

@Stephen Hamacek (hammers) I would personally refrain from making a new report. This task is left open as a task for developers to refer too about issues with the old groups system and how it interacts with the Blender 2.8X collections system and your issue falls under that.

Although, a Blender developer may have better insight on this than I do.

Ok thanks, looking forward to their thoughts on this.