Math with Nodes #68734

New Issue

Jacques Lucke · 2019-08-16T16:29:28+02:00

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-08-16 16:29:28 +02:00

Currently, there are two main math nodes: "[Float] Math" and "Vector Math". The current workflow for using these is that first the correct math node has to be inserted, and then the correct operation has to be selected. This approach has two problems:

It forces the user to do two steps for an operation that should only take a single step (e.g. "insert multiply node").
"Math" is a very generic term. When more operations are added, it becomes more and more unclear which should be added to the math node and which belong to another node. And the user has to remember that.

A more scalable approach is to remove the "Math" node entirely and create individual nodes for different operations. For example, there will be an "Add", a "Subtract" and a "Dot Product" node. These new nodes can adapt to the data types that are connected to them.

This is not a change we have to do in the short term, but in the long run it is the better solution in my opinion. Especially as we get more types and operations.

Currently, there are two main math nodes: "[Float] Math" and "Vector Math". The current workflow for using these is that first the correct math node has to be inserted, and then the correct operation has to be selected. This approach has two problems: - It forces the user to do two steps for an operation that should only take a single step (e.g. "insert multiply node"). - "Math" is a very generic term. When more operations are added, it becomes more and more unclear which should be added to the math node and which belong to another node. And the user has to remember that. A more scalable approach is to remove the "Math" node entirely and create individual nodes for different operations. For example, there will be an "Add", a "Subtract" and a "Dot Product" node. These new nodes can adapt to the data types that are connected to them. This is not a change we have to do in the short term, but in the long run it is the better solution in my opinion. Especially as we get more types and operations.

Jacques Lucke self-assigned this 2019-08-16 16:29:28 +02:00

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-08-16 16:29:28 +02:00

Added subscriber: @JacquesLucke

Eitan Traurig commented

2019-08-16 16:55:36 +02:00

Added subscriber: @EitanSomething

Eitan Traurig commented

2019-08-16 16:55:36 +02:00

I generally like this idea, but it would take more time to switch between math operations

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-08-16 17:01:20 +02:00

That is true. However, I'd argue that it is worth it. I expect that you have to switch the operation relatively rarely.

Eitan Traurig commented

2019-08-16 17:04:44 +02:00

Maybe a drop down menu by the name of the node would give options of the other nodes in the nodes path.

Example :You would be able to see everything inside of math section.

Math
Add
Subtract

Maybe a drop down menu by the name of the node would give options of the other nodes in the nodes path. Example :You would be able to see everything inside of math section. - Math - Add - Subtract

Valentin commented

2019-08-16 17:13:51 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Poulpator

Valentin commented

2019-08-16 17:13:51 +02:00

It's not possible to create shortcut to math node e.g insert "Multiply" add a math node with multiply operation ?

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-08-16 17:18:55 +02:00

In #68734#754524, @Poulpator wrote:
It's not possible to create shortcut to math node e.g insert "Multiply" add a math node with multiply operation ?

Of course that is possible, I'm doing that for years already in Animation Nodes. But it does not solve the entire problem.

> In #68734#754524, @Poulpator wrote: > It's not possible to create shortcut to math node e.g insert "Multiply" add a math node with multiply operation ? Of course that is possible, I'm doing that for years already in Animation Nodes. But it does not solve the entire problem.

momotron2000 commented

2019-08-23 19:21:51 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Momotron

momotron2000 commented

2019-08-23 19:21:51 +02:00

I agree Math sounds more like a general term and could be used for more complex nodes like decimal/exponential

michael campbell commented

2019-08-23 19:44:40 +02:00

Added subscriber: @3di

michael campbell commented

2019-08-23 19:44:40 +02:00

This could cause more problems than it solves.

Often people select the wrong type of function through lack of knowledge, then realise it when the results aren't as expected. Not much of a problem at the moment because you can change it easily from the existing node's dropdown. If you have to replace the entire node then it's a lot of steps to delete the node, add another node, and then hook things back up properly, if you get the math wrong a number of times this could become frustrating. Also the menus system would become bloated (although sub menus would help as Eitan suggested above).

I guess a solution that would fit all would be to have a sub menu off of the math listing, and then use whatever's selected to set the operation type in the math node's dropdown. That way it can be easily changed if necessary , and allow users to add with one click.

This could cause more problems than it solves. Often people select the wrong type of function through lack of knowledge, then realise it when the results aren't as expected. Not much of a problem at the moment because you can change it easily from the existing node's dropdown. If you have to replace the entire node then it's a lot of steps to delete the node, add another node, and then hook things back up properly, if you get the math wrong a number of times this could become frustrating. Also the menus system would become bloated (although sub menus would help as Eitan suggested above). I guess a solution that would fit all would be to have a sub menu off of the math listing, and then use whatever's selected to set the operation type in the math node's dropdown. That way it can be easily changed if necessary , and allow users to add with one click.

Tomas commented

2019-08-23 19:56:53 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Rusculleda

Tomas commented

2019-08-23 19:56:53 +02:00

In #68734#761291, @3di wrote:
This could cause more problems than it solves.

Often people select the wrong type of function through lack of knowledge, then realise it when the results aren't as expected. Not much of a problem at the moment because you can change it easily from the existing node's dropdown. If you have to replace the entire node then it's a lot of steps to delete the node, add another node, and then hook things back up properly, if you get the math wrong a number of times this could become frustrating. Also the menus system would become bloated (although sub menus would help as Eitan suggested above).

I guess a solution that would fit all would be to have a sub menu off of the math listing, and then use whatever's selected to set the operation type in the math node's dropdown. That way it can be easily changed if necessary , and allow users to add with one click.

I know things should work fine by default, but node wrangler is an very commonly used shipped addon that maybe should be enabled by default, and it solves the problem you are pointing out (shift+s)

> In #68734#761291, @3di wrote: > This could cause more problems than it solves. > > Often people select the wrong type of function through lack of knowledge, then realise it when the results aren't as expected. Not much of a problem at the moment because you can change it easily from the existing node's dropdown. If you have to replace the entire node then it's a lot of steps to delete the node, add another node, and then hook things back up properly, if you get the math wrong a number of times this could become frustrating. Also the menus system would become bloated (although sub menus would help as Eitan suggested above). > > I guess a solution that would fit all would be to have a sub menu off of the math listing, and then use whatever's selected to set the operation type in the math node's dropdown. That way it can be easily changed if necessary , and allow users to add with one click. I know things should work fine by default, but node wrangler is an very commonly used shipped addon that maybe should be enabled by default, and it solves the problem you are pointing out (shift+s)

Evan Wilson commented

2019-08-26 05:53:45 +02:00

Added subscriber: @EAW

Mauro Fabio commented

2019-09-10 11:19:27 +02:00

Added subscriber: @MauroPfister

Julien Leménicier commented

2019-09-12 20:05:55 +02:00

Added subscriber: @lemenicier_julien

Bartosz Moniewski commented

2020-01-27 00:48:52 +01:00

Added subscriber: @BartekMoniewski

Hadrien Brissaud commented

2020-02-13 15:49:08 +01:00

Added subscriber: @hadrien

Hadrien Brissaud commented

2020-02-13 15:49:08 +01:00

If there's a single multiply node that can handle floats and vectors, how does it interface ? We should keep the value field when nothing's connected to the socket, but how should it behave then ? as a vector, or a single value field ?

Henrik D. commented

2020-03-30 15:18:51 +02:00

Added subscriber: @HDMaster84

Henrik D. commented

2020-03-30 15:18:51 +02:00

In #68734#754521, @JacquesLucke wrote:
That is true. However, I'd argue that it is worth it. I expect that you have to switch the operation relatively rarely.

I do switch between math nodes all the time. It is like the blend modes for a color mix node. It does definitly make sense to put it in a single node. I really like how the current math node in cycles material nodes works right now. From a technical point of view it might not make sense but from an artistic point of view where experimentation is a common thing it does make sense.

We could add shortcuts to the most common math operations though (like multiply, add, substract, divide and power)

> In #68734#754521, @JacquesLucke wrote: > That is true. However, I'd argue that it is worth it. I expect that you have to switch the operation relatively rarely. I do switch between math nodes all the time. It is like the blend modes for a color mix node. It does definitly make sense to put it in a single node. I really like how the current math node in cycles material nodes works right now. From a technical point of view it might not make sense but from an artistic point of view where experimentation is a common thing it does make sense. We could add shortcuts to the most common math operations though (like multiply, add, substract, divide and power)

Charlie Jolly commented

2021-02-18 10:51:48 +01:00

Added subscriber: @CharlieJolly

Charlie Jolly commented

2021-02-18 10:51:48 +01:00

I touched on some design aspects in #73512 when looking to add a Vector Map Range to Cycles.

RedMser commented

2021-02-18 13:37:45 +01:00

Added subscriber: @RedMser

Vladislav Macíček commented

2021-08-27 21:40:24 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Aeraglyx

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-09-09 10:01:51 +02:00

Added subscriber: @1D_Inc

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-09-09 10:01:51 +02:00

In #68734#900376, @HDMaster84 wrote:

In #68734#754521, @JacquesLucke wrote:
That is true. However, I'd argue that it is worth it. I expect that you have to switch the operation relatively rarely.

I do switch between math nodes all the time. It is like the blend modes for a color mix node.

Yes, changing math node mode is like changing layers blending modes, like in photoshop or krita - with the ability to check the result immediately.

> In #68734#900376, @HDMaster84 wrote: >> In #68734#754521, @JacquesLucke wrote: >> That is true. However, I'd argue that it is worth it. I expect that you have to switch the operation relatively rarely. > > I do switch between math nodes all the time. It is like the blend modes for a color mix node. Yes, changing math node mode is like changing layers blending modes, like in photoshop or krita - with the ability to check the result immediately.

Philipp Oeser removed the

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Math with Nodes #68734