Rigid Body System / Outliner inconsistency with Memory? #72448

New Issue

Theo Gottwald · 2019-12-14T17:27:02+01:00

Theo Gottwald commented

2019-12-14 17:27:02 +01:00

System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.18362 64 Bits
Graphics card: GeForce GTX 1080/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 441.20

Blender Version
Broken: version: 2.82 (sub 1), branch: master, commit date: 2019-11-26 05:28, hash: 75e85f1c9f
Worked: (optional)

Short description of error
I have recorded it, you can see itin my video starting at 15:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIy9layc2KA&t=3013s

As a short description, when the user deletes and recreates objects often in the OUTLINER,
the animation wether does not work at all or works in a crazy way.
I could not reproduce the problem if the outliner is not used.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

Please see the video. It shows the problems.

SIDENOTE to developers:
PS: Please think of changes with the TILE-SIZE for Rendering.

   When using multiple graphics cards, CPU-rendered tiles should form together "ONE DEVICE (All CPU-Cores=1 Tile)" not multiple devices.
   Then the graphics cards Tile can be larger. And the CPU can still be used, which does currently not make much sense.

[Please describe the exact steps needed to reproduce the issue]
[Based on the default startup or an attached .blend file (as simple as possible)]

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.18362 64 Bits Graphics card: GeForce GTX 1080/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 441.20 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 2.82 (sub 1), branch: master, commit date: 2019-11-26 05:28, hash: `75e85f1c9f` Worked: (optional) **Short description of error** I have recorded it, you can see itin my video starting at 15:58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIy9layc2KA&t=3013s As a short description, when the user deletes and recreates objects often in the OUTLINER, the animation wether does not work at all or works in a crazy way. I could not reproduce the problem if the outliner is not used. **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** Please see the video. It shows the problems. SIDENOTE to developers: PS: Please think of changes with the TILE-SIZE for Rendering. ``` When using multiple graphics cards, CPU-rendered tiles should form together "ONE DEVICE (All CPU-Cores=1 Tile)" not multiple devices. Then the graphics cards Tile can be larger. And the CPU can still be used, which does currently not make much sense. ``` [Please describe the exact steps needed to reproduce the issue] [Based on the default startup or an attached .blend file (as simple as possible)]

Theo Gottwald commented

2019-12-14 17:27:02 +01:00

Added subscriber: @Theo_Gottwald

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-12-29 15:05:40 +01:00

Added subscriber: @JacquesLucke

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-12-29 15:05:40 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs User Info'

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-12-29 15:05:40 +01:00

I cannot see the issue immediately in the video. Please describe the issue in concise steps here and make it easy for use to reproduce it.

Make sure you explain the expected and actual behaviors.

I cannot see the issue immediately in the video. Please describe the issue in concise steps here and make it easy for use to reproduce it. Make sure you explain the expected and actual behaviors.

Theo Gottwald commented

2019-12-29 15:12:35 +01:00

Under some circumstances the Rigid Body system does not clear its cache and tries to use an old baking for the "New Scene".
Sometimes the Rigid Body System behaves wrongly and just moves object in an unforeseable way.
The video shows it, I could reproduce it mostly when deleting stuff in the OUTLINER.
Meanwhile i would sugggest to think about this:
Variables and Baking-Data in the "rigid body world" should be cleared when any object is deleted that belongs to it.
Especially when all objects are deleted. Currently this is not the case.
So if i delete objects in the outliner and create new objects - at another place - they will just follow the old Baking.
Which does not make sense,
I don't know if this will remove the bug (in the video) but it will be an improvement anyway.
Also if i click "Delete baking" and "Bake all", it will not at all times really do that.
Sometimes you will need to "remove Rigid Body World" or make changes to a RB-Object to REALLY get a new baking.
Pressing the Button or calling the Python API should be forcing to clear old Baking Data and also clear old stored variables.

Under some circumstances the Rigid Body system does not clear its cache and tries to use an old baking for the "New Scene". Sometimes the Rigid Body System behaves wrongly and just moves object in an unforeseable way. The video shows it, I could reproduce it mostly when deleting stuff in the OUTLINER. Meanwhile i would sugggest to think about this: Variables and Baking-Data in the "rigid body world" should be cleared when any object is deleted that belongs to it. Especially when all objects are deleted. Currently this is not the case. So if i delete objects in the outliner and create new objects - at another place - they will just follow the old Baking. Which does not make sense, I don't know if this will remove the bug (in the video) but it will be an improvement anyway. Also if i click "Delete baking" and "Bake all", it will not at all times really do that. Sometimes you will need to "remove Rigid Body World" or make changes to a RB-Object to REALLY get a new baking. Pressing the Button or calling the Python API should be forcing to clear old Baking Data and also clear old stored variables.

Jacques Lucke commented

2019-12-29 15:16:43 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs User Info' to: 'Needs Triage'

Richard Antalik commented

2020-01-17 12:26:01 +01:00

Added subscriber: @iss

Richard Antalik commented

2020-01-17 12:26:01 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs User Info'

Richard Antalik commented

2020-01-17 12:26:01 +01:00

@Theo_Gottwald Can you give us simple .blend file and describe exact steps to reproduce?

Video is really not great way to do this, because it is unnecessary long, you have to pay very close attention where the person is clicking and you have no idea what he does with his keyboard.
Look for example at this report: https://developer.blender.org/T70367

@Theo_Gottwald Can you give us simple .blend file and describe exact steps to reproduce? Video is really not great way to do this, because it is unnecessary long, you have to pay very close attention where the person is clicking and you have no idea what he does with his keyboard. Look for example at this report: https://developer.blender.org/T70367

Theo Gottwald commented

2020-01-17 17:56:16 +01:00

The Physics System - as it is - is a good start.
Now that i used it for some weeks, i see what it can be used for and where it has weak points.
For beginners its not very userfriendly, mainly because of the problems that i have shown in the video.
Its that the Baking is too permanent and will even survice if you delete all objects in the Scene!
For Pro's the question is another, its rather: "Why does my Physics Baking use more time then the final rendering?"
The answer is possibly "Because its rendered using just 1 CPU Core".
So there could be potential for improvement from these two sides:

Speed up the baking, which is very slow for high quality values like (240/240)
Remove the baking when objects get deleted or get invalid.

As my video shows the current behavior is not good for new users because they will run easily into
"Balls flying everywhere around". And whatever parameter they change - nothing will change,
until you completely remove rigid body world and start the Physics dataset from new.

So i suggest to overlook the Physics in these 2 direction:

How can the baking be speed up in high quality (Is it possible to utilize the GPU here also?)?
If there are objects deleted that are in the "Bake" then the complete Bake should also be deleted. Currently the behavior is not straightforward, not even if you use the buttons "Delete all Bakes" and "Bake all new".
At the moment i would direct you to the video, but if you see a chance to just "upgrade and rework" the Physics system, this would possibly be a very good idea.

The Physics System - as it is - is a good start. Now that i used it for some weeks, i see what it can be used for and where it has weak points. For beginners its not very userfriendly, mainly because of the problems that i have shown in the video. Its that the Baking is too permanent and will even survice if you delete all objects in the Scene! For Pro's the question is another, its rather: "Why does my Physics Baking use more time then the final rendering?" The answer is possibly "Because its rendered using just 1 CPU Core". So there could be potential for improvement from these two sides: 1. Speed up the baking, which is very slow for high quality values like (240/240) 2. Remove the baking when objects get deleted or get invalid. As my video shows the current behavior is not good for new users because they will run easily into "Balls flying everywhere around". And whatever parameter they change - nothing will change, until you completely remove rigid body world and start the Physics dataset from new. So i suggest to overlook the Physics in these 2 direction: 1. How can the baking be speed up in high quality (Is it possible to utilize the GPU here also?)? 2. If there are objects deleted that are in the "Bake" then the complete Bake should also be deleted. Currently the behavior is not straightforward, not even if you use the buttons "Delete all Bakes" and "Bake all new". At the moment i would direct you to the video, but if you see a chance to just "upgrade and rework" the Physics system, this would possibly be a very good idea.

Richard Antalik commented

2020-01-26 02:58:27 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs User Info' to: 'Archived'

Richard Antalik closed this issue

2020-01-26 02:58:27 +01:00

Richard Antalik self-assigned this 2020-01-26 02:58:27 +01:00

Richard Antalik commented

2020-01-26 02:58:27 +01:00

@Theo_Gottwald Thanks for your input, but this bugtracker is not place for lengthy discussions or users to leave suggestions.

Because of high amount of reports we need simple as possible test case. That is exact steps to reproduce and preferably .blend file that exhibits buggy behavior.

We will have to close this report until you can provide test case as described above.

@Theo_Gottwald Thanks for your input, but this bugtracker is not place for lengthy discussions or users to leave suggestions. Because of high amount of reports we need simple as possible test case. That is exact steps to reproduce and preferably .blend file that exhibits buggy behavior. We will have to close this report until you can provide test case as described above.

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Rigid Body System / Outliner inconsistency with Memory? #72448