Property "Use for rendering" in View Layer Properties panel has no effect when compositing different scenes #74082

Closed
opened 2020-02-21 16:53:36 +01:00 by thierrry kobyleski · 14 comments

System Information
Linux
Nvidia GTX 780

Blender Version
Broken: 2.82

Property "Use for rendering" in View Layer Properties panel has no effect when compositing different scenes

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

1 Load the file, load factory settings, swicth to scene named "render", do render

  • I see only the sphere alone : CORRECT
    2 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" ON, go back to scene "render", do render

  • I see the sphere and the cube: CORRECT AGAIN
    3 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" OFF, go back to scene "render, do render

  • I see the sphere and the cube: INCORRECT

useForRendering.blend

**System Information** Linux Nvidia GTX 780 **Blender Version** Broken: 2.82 Property "Use for rendering" in View Layer Properties panel has no effect when compositing different scenes **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** 1 Load the file, load factory settings, swicth to scene named "render", do render - > I see only the sphere alone : CORRECT 2 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" ON, go back to scene "render", do render - > I see the sphere and the cube: CORRECT AGAIN 3 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" OFF, go back to scene "render, do render - > I see the sphere and the cube: INCORRECT [useForRendering.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8358039/useForRendering.blend)

Added subscriber: @thierrykobyleski

Added subscriber: @thierrykobyleski

Added subscriber: @iss

Added subscriber: @iss

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs User Info'

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs User Info'

Can not reproduce this

Click on File > Defaults > Load Factory Settings and see if that helps.
Please update report with exact information (automatically filled in when you click on Help > Report a Bug)

Can not reproduce this Click on File > Defaults > Load Factory Settings and see if that helps. Please update report with exact information (automatically filled in when you click on Help > Report a Bug)

Here the steps that shows the problem for me:
1 Load the file, load factory settings, swicth to scene named "render", do render

  • I see only the sphere alone : CORRECT
    2 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" ON, go back to scene "render", do render

  • I see the sphere and the cube: CORRECT AGAIN
    3 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" OFF, go back to scene "render, do render

  • I see the sphere and the cube: INCORRECT

Here the steps that shows the problem for me: 1 Load the file, load factory settings, swicth to scene named "render", do render - > I see only the sphere alone : CORRECT 2 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" ON, go back to scene "render", do render - > I see the sphere and the cube: CORRECT AGAIN 3 switch to scene "cube" set "use to for rendering" OFF, go back to scene "render, do render - > I see the sphere and the cube: INCORRECT
Member

Added subscriber: @EAW

Added subscriber: @EAW
Member

Changed status from 'Needs User Info' to: 'Archived'

Changed status from 'Needs User Info' to: 'Archived'
Evan Wilson self-assigned this 2020-02-21 20:08:29 +01:00
Member

It isn't rerendering the Cube layer, just displaying the result from step 2 still.

To see this, in Step 3, also add a Suzanne, and a subsurface modifier to the cube.

go back to scene "render", do render

  • see the sphere and only the unmodified cube from step 2.

If you want to hide the cube, hide it in the "cube" scene and rerender with "use to for rendering" ON in that now empty scene.

It isn't rerendering the Cube layer, just displaying the result from step 2 still. To see this, in Step 3, also add a Suzanne, and a subsurface modifier to the cube. go back to scene "render", do render - > see the sphere and only the unmodified cube from step 2. If you want to hide the cube, hide it in the "cube" scene and rerender with "use to for rendering" ON in that now empty scene.

The whole point is not to hide the cube with "use to for rendering" ON.

The property "use to for rendering" OFF is very efficient when you know that some layer will not be seen for a given point of view.
It is efficient both in term of rendering time and memory usage.

The whole point is not to hide the cube with "use to for rendering" ON. The property "use to for rendering" OFF is very efficient when you know that some layer will not be seen for a given point of view. It is efficient both in term of rendering time and memory usage.

In #74082#877812, @EAW wrote:
It isn't rerendering the Cube layer, just displaying the result from step 2 still.

This is true, but question is: Should it display result from step2?

To see this, in Step 3, also add a Suzanne, and a subsurface modifier to the cube.

go back to scene "render", do render
-> see the sphere and only the unmodified cube from step 2.

Actually you will see Suzanne and modified cube

> In #74082#877812, @EAW wrote: > It isn't rerendering the Cube layer, just displaying the result from step 2 still. This is true, but question is: Should it display result from step2? > To see this, in Step 3, also add a Suzanne, and a subsurface modifier to the cube. > > go back to scene "render", do render > -> see the sphere and only the unmodified cube from step 2. Actually you will see Suzanne and modified cube

Richard Antalik (ISS) added a comment
This is true, but question is: Should it display result from step2?

I believe your question is to Evan Wilson but I would like to add this :
If the layers were in a same scene you would see a correct behaviour ( i.e. no layer displayed when "use to for rendering" is OFF )

Richard Antalik (ISS) added a comment
Actually you will see Suzanne and modified cube

As Evan I see the sphere and only the unmodified cube from step 2.
But it is weird anyway, and not what would happened if the layers were in the same scene.

> Richard Antalik (ISS) added a comment > This is true, but question is: Should it display result from step2? I believe your question is to Evan Wilson but I would like to add this : If the layers were in a same scene you would see a correct behaviour ( i.e. no layer displayed when "use to for rendering" is OFF ) > Richard Antalik (ISS) added a comment > Actually you will see Suzanne and modified cube As Evan I see the sphere and only the unmodified cube from step 2. But it is weird anyway, and not what would happened if the layers were in the same scene.
Member

Added subscribers: @Sergey, @Jeroen-Bakker

Added subscribers: @Sergey, @Jeroen-Bakker
Member

In #74082#877812, @EAW wrote:

If you want to hide the cube, hide it in the "cube" scene and rerender with "use to for rendering" ON in that now empty scene.

In #74082#877847, @thierrykobyleski wrote:
The whole point is not to hide the cube with "use to for rendering" ON.

The property "use to for rendering" OFF is very efficient when you know that some layer will not be seen for a given point of view.
It is efficient both in term of rendering time and memory usage.

@thierrykobyleski Ah, yes, of course! My comment was based upon an assumption that I now see falls apart when I try to explain it. So please disregard it. Apologies.


Should it display result from step2?

@iss and @thierrykobyleski
I think the current behavior is the correct and desired one. If you have background elements that don't interact with foreground elements (ex: casting shadows and reflections), then you only have to render that background once. The background render layer will be kept in the image buffer in the "Render" Scene's Compositor.
Keyframe "Use for Rendering" to be OFF in the background scene for the rest of the frames, and you only have to render your foreground elements.
I used the 2.82 splash screen to demonstrate this below. It is only an EEVEE Grease Pencil render. The advantages of this technique increase as the amount of render time and memory needed for the background elements increase.

2.82_splash_background.png

On RightClickSelect, the 6th most upvoted feature request is Retain previous render while rendering with render border.
You can already do this, by using this technique: 2 copies of the same scene, render one fully only once, and just render with render border in the other as you make your tweaks. Composite the render border scene over the full scene that stays in the image buffer in the compositor. When you are satisfied with the tweaks, do another full render.

If you don't want the "Background" or "Cube" layer to appear in some frames, keyframing a switch, mix, or alpha over node in the compositor is the solution, not breaking breaking the above workflows by clearing the buffer.

@Jeroen-Bakker and @Sergey, as you are the owners of the compositing module, what are your thoughts on the matter?

>>>> In #74082#877812, @EAW wrote: >>>If you want to hide the cube, hide it in the "cube" scene and rerender with "use to for rendering" ON in that now empty scene. > In #74082#877847, @thierrykobyleski wrote: > The whole point is not to hide the cube with "use to for rendering" ON. > > The property "use to for rendering" OFF is very efficient when you know that some layer will not be seen for a given point of view. > It is efficient both in term of rendering time and memory usage. @thierrykobyleski Ah, yes, of course! My comment was based upon an assumption that I now see falls apart when I try to explain it. So please disregard it. Apologies. --- > Should it display result from step2? @iss and @thierrykobyleski I think the current behavior is the correct and desired one. If you have background elements that don't interact with foreground elements (ex: casting shadows and reflections), then you only have to render that background once. The background render layer will be kept in the image buffer in the "Render" Scene's Compositor. Keyframe "Use for Rendering" to be OFF in the background scene for the rest of the frames, and you only have to render your foreground elements. I used the 2.82 splash screen to demonstrate this below. It is only an EEVEE Grease Pencil render. The advantages of this technique increase as the amount of render time and memory needed for the background elements increase. ![2.82_splash_background.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8363056/2.82_splash_background.png) On RightClickSelect, the 6th most upvoted feature request is [Retain previous render while rendering with render border](https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/7cbbbc/). You can already do this, by using this technique: 2 copies of the same scene, render one fully only once, and just render with render border in the other as you make your tweaks. Composite the render border scene over the full scene that stays in the image buffer in the compositor. When you are satisfied with the tweaks, do another full render. If you don't want the "Background" or "Cube" layer to appear in some frames, keyframing a switch, mix, or alpha over node in the compositor is the solution, not breaking breaking the above workflows by clearing the buffer. @Jeroen-Bakker and @Sergey, as you are the owners of the compositing module, what are your thoughts on the matter?

So if I understand correctly:
1 "Use for Rendering" OFF for a layer of scene A means "keep previous render for that layer" when compositing that layer from a different scene B
2 "Use for Rendering" OFF for a layer of scene A means "dont use that layer in composition" when compositing that layer in the same scene A

Case 1 is indeed a very interesting behaviour. But it is not an easy guess when someone is used to the behaviour of Case 2

The two behaviours serve different purposes. Behaviour of case 2 is meant to NOT compose a layer the user knows in advance will not contribute to the final result.

So I see a work around for me:
Step 1 : render a wiped out layer (e.g holdout overlay) with "Use for Rendering" ON
Step 2 : set "Use for Rendering" OFF as long as the layer is out of sight

So if I understand correctly: 1 "Use for Rendering" OFF for a layer of scene A means "keep previous render for that layer" when compositing that layer from a different scene B 2 "Use for Rendering" OFF for a layer of scene A means "dont use that layer in composition" when compositing that layer in the same scene A Case 1 is indeed a very interesting behaviour. But it is not an easy guess when someone is used to the behaviour of Case 2 The two behaviours serve different purposes. Behaviour of case 2 is meant to NOT compose a layer the user knows in advance will not contribute to the final result. So I see a work around for me: Step 1 : render a wiped out layer (e.g holdout overlay) with "Use for Rendering" ON Step 2 : set "Use for Rendering" OFF as long as the layer is out of sight
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Reference: blender/blender#74082
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