Bendy Bones: Bone Size / Envelope Reversed #75465

New Issue

Aaron Carlisle · 2020-04-07T02:44:25+02:00

Aaron Carlisle commented

2020-04-07 02:44:25 +02:00

System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.18362-SP0 64 Bits
Graphics card: GeForce RTX 2070/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 441.66

Blender Version
Broken: version: 2.83 (sub 11), branch: master, commit date: 2020-04-04 16:55, hash: 505a19ed75
Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected)

Short description of error

Using bendy bones using the Envelope tool alters the bone size of the bendy bones (Calls bpy.ops.transform.bbone_resize()) instead the bone size tool should adjust this.

This UX is a bit strange, the bone size and bone envelope should always affect envelope_distance and head_radius / tail_radius.
There should be a third tool that only calls bpy.ops.transform.bbone_resize() called "Bendy Bone Size".
The Envelope and Bone Size tools should probably be renamed to more specific names such as "Envelop Tail/Head Radius" and "Envelope Distance"

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

Use the two tools on bendy bones and other bone display types.

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.18362-SP0 64 Bits Graphics card: GeForce RTX 2070/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 441.66 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 2.83 (sub 11), branch: master, commit date: 2020-04-04 16:55, hash: `505a19ed75` Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected) **Short description of error** Using bendy bones using the Envelope tool alters the bone size of the bendy bones (Calls `bpy.ops.transform.bbone_resize()`) instead the bone size tool should adjust this. This UX is a bit strange, the bone size and bone envelope should always affect `envelope_distance` and `head_radius` / `tail_radius`. There should be a third tool that only calls `bpy.ops.transform.bbone_resize()` called "Bendy Bone Size". The Envelope and Bone Size tools should probably be renamed to more specific names such as "Envelop Tail/Head Radius" and "Envelope Distance" **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** Use the two tools on bendy bones and other bone display types.

Aaron Carlisle commented

2020-04-07 02:44:25 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Blendify

Aaron Carlisle commented

2020-04-07 02:49:03 +02:00

From the manual:

Altering the Bone Envelope volume does not alter the size of the bone just the range
within which it can influence vertices of child objects.

From the manual: > Altering the Bone Envelope volume does not alter the size of the bone just the range > within which it can influence vertices of child objects.

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-04-07 14:28:58 +02:00

Added subscribers: @WilliamReynish, @ideasman42, @lichtwerk

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-04-07 14:28:58 +02:00

Please check #72903 (Bone Envelope and Bone Size tools appear to have switched functions) and dd2cdd436f.
Also a bit sceptical that this was the right fix ^

CC @WilliamReynish
CC @ideasman42

Please check #72903 (Bone Envelope and Bone Size tools appear to have switched functions) and dd2cdd436f. Also a bit sceptical that this was the right fix ^ CC @WilliamReynish CC @ideasman42

Aaron Carlisle commented

2020-04-07 18:38:17 +02:00

My attempt at a fix but something weird is still happening when changing bone display types.

P1332: (An Untitled Masterwork)

diff --git a/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py b/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py
index 3944f8f0817..ffc934a697a 100644
--- a/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py
+++ b/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py
@@ -5802,18 +5802,29 @@ def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_roll(params):

 def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_size(params):
     return (
-        "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Bone Size",
+        "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Head/Tail Radius",
         {"space_type": 'VIEW_3D', "region_type": 'WINDOW'},
         {"items": [
             ("transform.transform", {"type": params.tool_tweak, "value": 'ANY'},
-             {"properties": [("release_confirm", True), ("mode", 'BONE_ENVELOPE')]}),
+             {"properties": [("release_confirm", True), ("mode", 'BONE_SIZE')]}),
         ]},
     )


 def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_envelope(params):
     return (
-        "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Bone Envelope",
+        "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Envelope Distance",
+        {"space_type": 'VIEW_3D', "region_type": 'WINDOW'},
+        {"items": [
+            ("transform.transform", {"type": params.tool_tweak, "value": 'ANY'},
+             {"properties": [("release_confirm", True), ("mode", 'BONE_ENVELOPE')]}),
+        ]},
+    )
+
+
+def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_bbone_resize(params):
+    return (
+        "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Bendy Bone Size",
         {"space_type": 'VIEW_3D', "region_type": 'WINDOW'},

         {"items": [
@@ -6695,6 +6706,7 @@ def generate_keymaps(params=None):
         km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_roll(params),
         km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_size(params),
         km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_envelope(params),
+        km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_bbone_resize(params),
         km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_extrude(params),
         km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_extrude_to_cursor(params),
         km_3d_view_tool_edit_mesh_add_cube(params),
diff --git a/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py b/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py
index cb3d2909205..a09659df00d 100644
--- a/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py
+++ b/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py
@@ -423,26 +423,37 @@ class _defs_edit_armature:
             keymap=(),
         )

+    @ToolDef.from_fn
+    def bone_size():
+        return dict(
+            idname="builtin.bone_size",
+            label="Head/Tail Radius",
+            icon="ops.transform.bone_size",
+            widget="VIEW3D_GGT_tool_generic_handle_free",
+            keymap=(),
+        )
+
     @ToolDef.from_fn
     def bone_envelope():
         return dict(
             idname="builtin.bone_envelope",
-            label="Bone Envelope",
+            label="Envelope Distance",
             icon="ops.transform.bone_envelope",
             widget="VIEW3D_GGT_tool_generic_handle_free",
             keymap=(),
         )

     @ToolDef.from_fn
-    def bone_size():
+    def bone_bbone_resize():
         return dict(
-            idname="builtin.bone_size",
-            label="Bone Size",
-            icon="ops.transform.bone_size",
+            idname="builtin.bone_bbone_resize",
+            label="Bendy Bone Size",
+            icon="ops.transform.bbone_resize",
             widget="VIEW3D_GGT_tool_generic_handle_free",
             keymap=(),
         )

+
     @ToolDef.from_fn
     def extrude():
         return dict(
@@ -2085,6 +2096,7 @@ class VIEW3D_PT_tools_active(ToolSelectPanelHelper, Panel):
                 _defs_edit_armature.bone_size,
                 _defs_edit_armature.bone_envelope,
             ),
+            _defs_edit_armature.bone_bbone_resize,
             None,
             (
                 _defs_edit_armature.extrude,

My attempt at a fix but something weird is still happening when changing bone display types. [P1332: (An Untitled Masterwork)](https://archive.blender.org/developer/P1332.txt) ``` diff --git a/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py b/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py index 3944f8f0817..ffc934a697a 100644 --- a/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py +++ b/release/scripts/presets/keyconfig/keymap_data/blender_default.py @@ -5802,18 +5802,29 @@ def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_roll(params): def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_size(params): return ( - "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Bone Size", + "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Head/Tail Radius", {"space_type": 'VIEW_3D', "region_type": 'WINDOW'}, {"items": [ ("transform.transform", {"type": params.tool_tweak, "value": 'ANY'}, - {"properties": [("release_confirm", True), ("mode", 'BONE_ENVELOPE')]}), + {"properties": [("release_confirm", True), ("mode", 'BONE_SIZE')]}), ]}, ) def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_envelope(params): return ( - "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Bone Envelope", + "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Envelope Distance", + {"space_type": 'VIEW_3D', "region_type": 'WINDOW'}, + {"items": [ + ("transform.transform", {"type": params.tool_tweak, "value": 'ANY'}, + {"properties": [("release_confirm", True), ("mode", 'BONE_ENVELOPE')]}), + ]}, + ) + + +def km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_bbone_resize(params): + return ( + "3D View Tool: Edit Armature, Bendy Bone Size", {"space_type": 'VIEW_3D', "region_type": 'WINDOW'}, {"items": [ @@ -6695,6 +6706,7 @@ def generate_keymaps(params=None): km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_roll(params), km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_size(params), km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_envelope(params), + km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_bone_bbone_resize(params), km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_extrude(params), km_3d_view_tool_edit_armature_extrude_to_cursor(params), km_3d_view_tool_edit_mesh_add_cube(params), diff --git a/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py b/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py index cb3d2909205..a09659df00d 100644 --- a/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py +++ b/release/scripts/startup/bl_ui/space_toolsystem_toolbar.py @@ -423,26 +423,37 @@ class _defs_edit_armature: keymap=(), ) + @ToolDef.from_fn + def bone_size(): + return dict( + idname="builtin.bone_size", + label="Head/Tail Radius", + icon="ops.transform.bone_size", + widget="VIEW3D_GGT_tool_generic_handle_free", + keymap=(), + ) + @ToolDef.from_fn def bone_envelope(): return dict( idname="builtin.bone_envelope", - label="Bone Envelope", + label="Envelope Distance", icon="ops.transform.bone_envelope", widget="VIEW3D_GGT_tool_generic_handle_free", keymap=(), ) @ToolDef.from_fn - def bone_size(): + def bone_bbone_resize(): return dict( - idname="builtin.bone_size", - label="Bone Size", - icon="ops.transform.bone_size", + idname="builtin.bone_bbone_resize", + label="Bendy Bone Size", + icon="ops.transform.bbone_resize", widget="VIEW3D_GGT_tool_generic_handle_free", keymap=(), ) + @ToolDef.from_fn def extrude(): return dict( @@ -2085,6 +2096,7 @@ class VIEW3D_PT_tools_active(ToolSelectPanelHelper, Panel): _defs_edit_armature.bone_size, _defs_edit_armature.bone_envelope, ), + _defs_edit_armature.bone_bbone_resize, None, ( _defs_edit_armature.extrude, ```

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-05-08 11:43:24 +02:00

Added subscriber: @dr.sybren

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-05-08 11:43:24 +02:00

@Blendify can you be more specific about the "something weird"?
How does this report differ from {#72903}?

@Blendify can you be more specific about the "something weird"? How does this report differ from {#72903}?

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-05-08 11:55:49 +02:00

@dr.sybren: this is the "reverse" report :)

#72903 was reported, dd2cdd436f was commited [that commit swapped it -- to me, this was not really the right fix, see my comments in #72903]
Now this report more or less want the original state back...

@dr.sybren: this is the "reverse" report :) #72903 was reported, dd2cdd436f was commited [that commit swapped it -- to me, this was not really the right fix, see my comments in #72903] Now this report more or less want the original state back...

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-05-08 12:01:11 +02:00

double-post

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-05-11 11:59:43 +02:00

Added subscribers: @Mets, @jpbouza-4

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-05-11 11:59:43 +02:00

@jpbouza-4 @Mets please share your opinion on these tools. There has been quite a bit of confusion over what they do already, and instead of doing other smaller changes to try and close this report ASAP I would rather see a proper solution.

My concrete questions to you:

Do you agree that the current naming & behaviour is confusing?
Do you agree with @Blendify's suggestion of having three tools, "Envelop Tail/Head Radius", "Envelope Distance", and "Bendy Bone Size"?
If not, what better suggestions do you have?

@jpbouza-4 @Mets please share your opinion on these tools. There has been quite a bit of confusion over what they do already, and instead of doing other smaller changes to try and close this report ASAP I would rather see a proper solution. My concrete questions to you: 1. Do you agree that the current naming & behaviour is confusing? 2. Do you agree with @Blendify's suggestion of having three tools, "Envelop Tail/Head Radius", "Envelope Distance", and "Bendy Bone Size"? 3. If not, what better suggestions do you have?

Demeter Dzadik commented

2020-05-11 15:12:14 +02:00

I'm a bit confused because the post makes it sound like there are two current tools relating to those properties, a "Bone Size" and an "Envelope" tool, but I cannot see the latter!

"Bone Size" as a term in general is ambiguous and I would avoid it in tool names, documentation, everywhere. There's bone length, envelope radius, envelope distance, bbone scale and even custom shape scale. That's just edit mode. All these things have names that describe them perfectly, there is no need for ambiguity.

In a perfect world, I agree that there would be three tools:

"BBone Scale" tool, which is only available when armature display mode is BBone.
"Envelope Distance" tool, which is only available when armature display mode is Envelope
"Envelope Radius" tool, which is only available when armature display mode is Envelope. There doesn't need to be a separate tool for head/tail radius, since you can just use the selection.

On a side note: I don't understand the use case for the Shear tool, but why does it have 6 gizmos? Seems like it only needs 3.

I'm a bit confused because the post makes it sound like there are two current tools relating to those properties, a "Bone Size" and an "Envelope" tool, but I cannot see the latter! "Bone Size" as a term in general is ambiguous and I would avoid it in tool names, documentation, everywhere. There's bone length, envelope radius, envelope distance, bbone scale and even custom shape scale. That's just edit mode. All these things have names that describe them perfectly, there is no need for ambiguity. In a perfect world, I agree that there would be three tools: - "BBone Scale" tool, which is only available when armature display mode is BBone. - "Envelope Distance" tool, which is only available when armature display mode is Envelope - "Envelope Radius" tool, which is only available when armature display mode is Envelope. There doesn't need to be a separate tool for head/tail radius, since you can just use the selection. On a side note: I don't understand the use case for the Shear tool, but why does it have 6 gizmos? Seems like it only needs 3.

Aaron Carlisle commented

2020-05-11 22:01:58 +02:00

In #75465#926802, @dr.sybren wrote:
@Blendify can you be more specific about the "something weird"?
How does this report differ from {#72903}?

By something weird I mean, one tool is changing different bone properties depending on what bone shape is being used.

I'm a bit confused because the post makes it sound like there are two current tools relating to those properties, a "Bone Size" and an "Envelope" tool, but I cannot see the latter!

There is a sub tool called "Bine Envelope" nested with "Bone Size"

> In #75465#926802, @dr.sybren wrote: > @Blendify can you be more specific about the "something weird"? > How does this report differ from {#72903}? By something weird I mean, one tool is changing different bone properties depending on what bone shape is being used. > I'm a bit confused because the post makes it sound like there are two current tools relating to those properties, a "Bone Size" and an "Envelope" tool, but I cannot see the latter! There is a sub tool called "Bine Envelope" nested with "Bone Size"

Aaron Carlisle commented

2020-05-11 22:05:37 +02:00

In a perfect world, I agree that there would be three tools:

If we are hiding tools based on the armature display should mean we hide panels not related to the armature display type.

On another note, calling it "Armature Display Type" seems weird to me, I think it should be just "Armature Type" and moved out of the Viewport display panel.
This property does more than change how the bone is shown in the viewport as it also changes how the bone is used and the properties it has.

> In a perfect world, I agree that there would be three tools: If we are hiding tools based on the armature display should mean we hide panels not related to the armature display type. ------------------ On another note, calling it "Armature Display Type" seems weird to me, I think it should be just "Armature Type" and moved out of the Viewport display panel. This property does more than change how the bone is shown in the viewport as it also changes how the bone is used and the properties it has.

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-05-15 14:45:27 +02:00

Added subscriber: @JulianEisel

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-05-15 14:45:27 +02:00

I'd be fine with three tools as @Mets suggests. I also agree with @Blendify that Armature Type would be a better name.

As for the tools, that's in the realm of @ideasman42 and @Severin. What do you guys think?

I'd be fine with three tools as @Mets suggests. I also agree with @Blendify that Armature Type would be a better name. As for the tools, that's in the realm of @ideasman42 and @Severin. What do you guys think?

Juan Pablo Bouza commented

2020-05-15 17:04:32 +02:00

Guys, maybe I'm understanding things wrong, but there seems to be a misconception here. I don't think the 'Armature display type" label should be changed. It is in fact only a display option, it doesn't affect the functionality of bones in any way. So changing it to just Armature Type would imply that setting it to bbones or stick would make the armature behave in a different way when it doesn't.

Also, just to clarify something that I think was not mentioned is that as far as I know, the Bone size (the one that affects bbones) is again just a display option, it doesn't affect functionality of a bbone in any way. On the other hand, the envelope options do have an impact on deformation when you use the envelope option (which I never do because it has a huge performance impact)

Those are my 2 cents!

Guys, maybe I'm understanding things wrong, but there seems to be a misconception here. I don't think the 'Armature display type" label should be changed. It is in fact only a display option, it doesn't affect the functionality of bones in any way. So changing it to just Armature Type would imply that setting it to bbones or stick would make the armature behave in a different way when it doesn't. Also, just to clarify something that I think was not mentioned is that as far as I know, the Bone size (the one that affects bbones) is again just a display option, it doesn't affect functionality of a bbone in any way. On the other hand, the envelope options do have an impact on deformation when you use the envelope option (which I never do because it has a huge performance impact) Those are my 2 cents!

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-06-18 11:35:56 +02:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'

Andres Stephens commented

2021-03-29 15:54:38 +02:00

Added subscriber: @AndresStephens

Andres Stephens commented

2021-03-29 15:54:38 +02:00

Can confirm the issue:
Right now, it is nearly impossible to know that you can scale Bendy Bones (when rig display is set to Bendy Bones) by using the "Bone Envelope tool" - something completely de-attached from bendy bone scale concerning UX.

Could we add a "Change Bounding Bone Size" button or make the operator change name/icon dynamically based on the rig visibility type? Or find some other solution, maybe a separate operator name and tooltip.

Ideally:
When rig is in Envelope mode, this tool has the name "Bone Envelope"
When the rig is in Bendy Bone mode, this tool has the name "B-Bone Scale" - optionally changing icon.
Or have two buttons for the different tools - instead of the one and the same for disjoint UX.

Reason:
UI Discoverability

Task

Investigate how to dynamically show and hide tools based on rig visibility modes
OR add button for bendy bone scale with new icon
OR change tooltip to be a better tooltip and name for the operator: "Envelope/B-Bone Scale"

![hFAoleVQsg.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F9913504/hFAoleVQsg.gif) Can confirm the issue: Right now, it is nearly impossible to know that you can scale Bendy Bones (when rig display is set to Bendy Bones) by using the "Bone Envelope tool" - something completely de-attached from bendy bone scale concerning UX. Could we add a "Change Bounding Bone Size" button or make the operator change name/icon dynamically based on the rig visibility type? Or find some other solution, maybe a separate operator name and tooltip. Ideally: When rig is in Envelope mode, this tool has the name "Bone Envelope" When the rig is in Bendy Bone mode, this tool has the name "B-Bone Scale" - optionally changing icon. Or have two buttons for the different tools - instead of the one and the same for disjoint UX. **Reason:** UI Discoverability **Task** - Investigate how to dynamically show and hide tools based on rig visibility modes - OR add button for bendy bone scale with new icon - OR change tooltip to be a better tooltip and name for the operator: "Envelope/B-Bone Scale"

Philipp Oeser removed the

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Bendy Bones: Bone Size / Envelope Reversed #75465