Keymap: use D-key for view navigation pie-menu (2nd iteration) #88092

New Issue

Campbell Barton · 2021-05-07T06:29:09+02:00

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-07 06:29:09 +02:00

{F10130612, size=full, alt="View pie menu"}

Motivation

An operation such as View should be easily accessible.
Tilda (~) key isn't always accessible or is not consistent in non US-english keyboards (e.g. Spanish layout has it on the right side next to L, in some layouts it doesn't even exist)

Proposed Solution

Use the D key to access the View pie menu.
Note: original proposal was to use V, but it turns out to be conflicting with too many areas/workflows.

Conflicts

D is one of the most accessible keys on the left side of the keyboard that has been historically (and surprisingly) not assigned (without holding modifier keys) to any crucial tool.

Blender 2.93 introduced the use of D key in Sculpt mode for the Transfer Mode operator. This tool is quite handy in a speedy workflow, so the proposal is to change this to the key left to 1, read more in #88071.
Grease Pencil Vertex Paint mode uses D key to switch to the Draw tool, this hotkey needs to be either switched or removed.

What about Annotations?

Annotations won't be affected since they are only triggered while holding the D key. Whereas the View pie menu is simply triggered on press

Open Topics

Would we have a view menu for non-3D views?

This could include:

Frame-Selected (e.g. center the view on selected nodes)
View All
Go to Current Frame (for animation views)

Notes

This task is to evaluate the pros and cons of this change, it may be the compromises don't justify the change.
That the Tilda key fails on some systems could be handled as a bug instead of working around it with keymap changes.

Task updated by @pablovazquez based on community feedback and a discussion had during a UI meeting on May 20th.

{[F10130612](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10130612/image.png), size=full, alt="View pie menu"} ## Motivation * An operation such as View should be easily accessible. * Tilda (`~`) key isn't always accessible or is not consistent in non US-english keyboards (e.g. Spanish layout has it on the right side next to `L`, in some layouts it doesn't even exist) ## Proposed Solution Use the `D` key to access the View pie menu. *Note: original proposal was to use `V`, but it turns out to be conflicting with too many areas/workflows.* ## Conflicts `D` is one of the most accessible keys on the left side of the keyboard that has been historically (and surprisingly) not assigned (without holding modifier keys) to any crucial tool. * Blender 2.93 introduced the use of `D` key in Sculpt mode for the `Transfer Mode` operator. This tool is quite handy in a speedy workflow, so the proposal is to change this to the key left to `1`, read more in #88071. * Grease Pencil Vertex Paint mode uses `D` key to switch to the Draw tool, this hotkey needs to be either switched or removed. ## What about Annotations? Annotations won't be affected since they are only triggered while holding the `D` key. Whereas the View pie menu is simply triggered on press ## Open Topics - Would we have a view menu for non-3D views? ``` This could include: ``` - Frame-Selected (e.g. center the view on selected nodes) - View All - Go to Current Frame (for animation views) ---- Notes - This task is to evaluate the pros and cons of this change, it may be the compromises don't justify the change. - That the Tilda key fails on some systems could be handled as a bug instead of working around it with keymap changes. ---- *Task updated by @pablovazquez based on community feedback and a discussion had during a UI meeting on May 20th.*

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-07 06:29:09 +02:00

Added subscribers: @ideasman42, @baoyu, @system-system, @jta, @Maged_Afra, @AndresStephens, @finirpar, @AlbertoVelazquez, @Gilberto.R, @1D_Inc, @xan2622, @TheRedWaxPolice, @RedMser, @JulianEisel

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-07 06:51:29 +02:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'

Campbell Barton changed title from ~~Keymap: use V-key for view navigation sub-menu~~ to Keymap: use V-key for view navigation pie-menu

2021-05-07 08:07:33 +02:00

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-05-07 10:00:27 +02:00

How about using D key?

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-07 10:11:11 +02:00

It's worth considering, this would be much less disruptive.

Julien Kaspar commented

2021-05-07 10:42:52 +02:00

Added subscriber: @JulienKaspar

Julien Kaspar commented

2021-05-07 10:42:52 +02:00

@ideasman42 I agree it would be best if we resolve this issue as a bug instead of working around it.
Were there any more results from trying out if the same key position independent of the keyboard layout. Or maybe detecting the keyboard layout settings and adjusting the keymap item based on that?

If all of that fails then I think V could work. But there is a bigger discussion on using the D key right now.
Currently the plan is to map the D key in every mode to the new Transfer Mode operator (#87134).
But there is also still the subject on possibly using a different shortcut for that (#87722) but some conflicts need to be resolved for that.
Depending on the outcome of that discussion the D key could end up being free or not for 3.0.

@ideasman42 I agree it would be best if we resolve this issue as a bug instead of working around it. Were there any more results from trying out if the same key position independent of the keyboard layout. Or maybe detecting the keyboard layout settings and adjusting the keymap item based on that? If all of that fails then I think V could work. But there is a bigger discussion on using the D key right now. Currently the plan is to map the D key in every mode to the new Transfer Mode operator (#87134). But there is also still the subject on possibly using a different shortcut for that (#87722) but some conflicts need to be resolved for that. Depending on the outcome of that discussion the D key could end up being free or not for 3.0.

Sebastian Parborg commented

2021-05-07 16:07:34 +02:00

Added subscriber: @ZedDB

Sebastian Parborg commented

2021-05-07 16:07:34 +02:00

In #88092#1157307, @JulienKaspar wrote:
@ideasman42 I agree it would be best if we resolve this issue as a bug instead of working around it.

I also think it would be better to not work around the core issue and instead fix it.
I've posted my thoughts in the patch review: https://developer.blender.org/D11189#285826

> In #88092#1157307, @JulienKaspar wrote: > @ideasman42 I agree it would be best if we resolve this issue as a bug instead of working around it. I also think it would be better to not work around the core issue and instead fix it. I've posted my thoughts in the patch review: https://developer.blender.org/D11189#285826

Paul Larson commented

2021-05-08 02:59:11 +02:00

Added subscriber: @GeorgiaPacific

Ryan Inch commented

2021-05-11 09:51:21 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Imaginer

Ryan Inch commented

2021-05-11 09:51:21 +02:00

I'd like to mention that this would also conflict with the "Move objects to QCD slots" popup for my Collection Manager addon.
Also, +1 to treating this as a bug and fixing the underlying issue.

I'd like to mention that this would also conflict with the "Move objects to QCD slots" popup for my Collection Manager addon. Also, +1 to treating this as a bug and fixing the underlying issue.

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-13 03:22:05 +02:00

Note: added "Open Topics" section, would this apply to other views (not just the 3D view), since there are at least 3 items that could be added to most 2D views.

Ryan Inch commented

2021-05-16 06:06:58 +02:00

In #88092#1160147, @ideasman42 wrote:
Note: added "Open Topics" section, would this apply to other views (not just the 3D view), since there are at least 3 items that could be added to most 2D views.

I think adding a view menu for other editors would probably be a good idea and would keep things consistent. But this seems to be a separate topic unrelated to whether the hotkey is changed?

> In #88092#1160147, @ideasman42 wrote: > Note: added "Open Topics" section, would this apply to other views (not just the 3D view), since there are at least 3 items that could be added to most 2D views. I think adding a view menu for other editors would probably be a good idea and would keep things consistent. But this seems to be a separate topic unrelated to whether the hotkey is changed?

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-05-19 20:33:16 +02:00

Provide quick access to the view menu

The ability to quickly and confidently (directly) setting view problem is also known to us.
Even during single reference modeling there is need to observe a model and then quickly return to the referenced view, so it have high relevancy value.
Nums are confident and useful, but requires right hand, widget is not direct, since it works relative to current view, and alt+MMB is not that smooth and confident.

At the moment we solved it in a hard way - bought a G300s mouse for modellers in company with additional M5 button,
set it to front view and modified it with Ctrl/Alt/Shift combinations to get immediate right/left/top/bottom/back views, which - of course - is a sin.
We've got the most confident view direction setting action, but this is not a solution that I can be proud of as a workflow designer.

Technically, we didn't found an appropriate solution, that allow to keep attention during modeling, is fast enough and is compatible with possible defaults.

> Provide quick access to the view menu The ability to quickly and confidently (directly) setting view problem is also known to us. Even during single reference [modeling ](https://youtu.be/6bsxPfYouhc?t=247) there is need to observe a model and then quickly return to the referenced view, so it have high relevancy value. Nums are confident and useful, but requires right hand, widget is not direct, since it works relative to current view, and alt+MMB is not that smooth and confident. At the moment we solved it in a hard way - bought a G300s mouse for modellers in company with additional M5 button, set it to front view and modified it with Ctrl/Alt/Shift combinations to get immediate right/left/top/bottom/back views, which - of course - is a sin. We've got the most confident view direction setting action, but this is not a solution that I can be proud of as a workflow designer. Technically, we didn't found an appropriate solution, that allow to keep attention during modeling, is fast enough and is compatible with possible defaults.

Pablo Vazquez changed title from ~~Keymap: use V-key for view navigation pie-menu~~ to Keymap: use D-key for view navigation pie-menu (2nd iteration)

2021-05-20 18:45:36 +02:00

Pablo Vazquez commented

2021-05-20 18:45:37 +02:00

Added subscriber: @pablovazquez

Pablo Vazquez commented

2021-05-20 19:06:50 +02:00

Updated the task description. The main change is to use D instead of V, as the latter is used much more often in many different workflows.

Updated the task description. The main change is to use `D` instead of `V`, as the latter is used much more often in many different workflows.

Effi commented

2021-05-21 07:44:43 +02:00

Added subscriber: @ephraimpauli

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-22 06:43:07 +02:00

D11189 has been updated to match changes in this design task.

[D11189](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D11189) has been updated to match changes in this design task.

Ryan Inch commented

2021-05-22 07:02:36 +02:00

As far as I know, the PRESS event fires before anything else, so I'm pretty sure that means that the view menu would conflict with annotations.

Edit: looks like this has been accounted for in D11189 and that it's not just press, it's press + motion. Apologies.

As far as I know, the `PRESS` event fires before anything else, so I'm pretty sure that means that the view menu would conflict with annotations. *Edit: looks like this has been accounted for in [D11189](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D11189) and that it's not just press, it's press + motion. Apologies.*

Leroy commented

2021-05-22 14:36:10 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Leroy-Xie

Leroy commented

2021-05-22 14:36:10 +02:00

@ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}?

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-22 15:32:28 +02:00

In #88092#1164365, @Leroy-Xie wrote:
@ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}?

No, this will be left as-is, as it would conflict with duplicate.

> In #88092#1164365, @Leroy-Xie wrote: > @ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}? No, this will be left as-is, as it would conflict with duplicate.

Gilberto Rodrigues commented

2021-05-27 08:21:19 +02:00

Removed subscriber: @Gilberto.R

Julian Eisel commented

2021-05-30 14:16:04 +02:00

In #88092#1164406, @ideasman42 wrote:

In #88092#1164365, @Leroy-Xie wrote:
@ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}?

No, this will be left as-is, as it would conflict with duplicate.

I'd prefer finding a new place for it - with the ~ it changes position depending on which computer I'm on, so I end up just not using it. But we could also make it use the physical key location. {key Shift D} is not available of course.

> In #88092#1164406, @ideasman42 wrote: >> In #88092#1164365, @Leroy-Xie wrote: >> @ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}? > > No, this will be left as-is, as it would conflict with duplicate. I'd prefer finding a new place for it - with the `~` it changes position depending on which computer I'm on, so I end up just not using it. But we could also make it use the physical key location. {key Shift D} is not available of course.

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-05-30 17:16:10 +02:00

In #88092#1168346, @JulianEisel wrote:
it changes position depending on which computer I'm on, so I end up just not using it.

Sure. That means that there is some predefined keyboard layout that can be used for specifying defaults, and, this layout at least don't contain tilda (so, for example, we can define that it is not ANSI layout).
That means that tilda can be occupied by default only with non-critical functions.
Is there an agreement how looks such a layout, suitable for defaults design, to avoid guessing?
Maybe keyboard model number, or set of model numbers?

> In #88092#1168346, @JulianEisel wrote: > it changes position depending on which computer I'm on, so I end up just not using it. Sure. That means that there is some predefined keyboard layout that can be used for specifying defaults, and, this layout at least don't contain tilda (so, for example, we can define that it is not ANSI layout). That means that tilda can be occupied by default only with non-critical functions. Is there an agreement how looks such a layout, suitable for defaults design, to avoid guessing? Maybe keyboard model number, or set of model numbers?

Campbell Barton commented

2021-05-31 06:00:24 +02:00

In #88092#1168346, @JulianEisel wrote:

In #88092#1164406, @ideasman42 wrote:

In #88092#1164365, @Leroy-Xie wrote:
@ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}?

No, this will be left as-is, as it would conflict with duplicate.

I'd prefer finding a new place for it - with the ~ it changes position depending on which computer I'm on, so I end up just not using it. But we could also make it use the physical key location. {key Shift D} is not available of course.

If there is a good alternative I'm fine with using this too, my only concern is that this means there are more trade offs we have to discuss and agree on before going ahead with this patch - since finding good alternative key-bindings that work across all modes in the 3D viewport is not so easy.

While walk/fly navigation are view related, I don't think it's as a hard requirement that moving the view menu key bindings changes this short-cut too.

Note that Ctrl-Tilda is used to toggle gizmos, if we're changing the use of the Tilda the key we could think of changing this too ... but again this gets into the kind of scope creep which can cause patches to be left in an undecided state for long periods of time. So I'd rather avoid that unless the changes are relatively straightforward.

> In #88092#1168346, @JulianEisel wrote: >> In #88092#1164406, @ideasman42 wrote: >>> In #88092#1164365, @Leroy-Xie wrote: >>> @ideasman42 Will the fly mode be changed to {key Shift}+{key d}? >> >> No, this will be left as-is, as it would conflict with duplicate. > > I'd prefer finding a new place for it - with the `~` it changes position depending on which computer I'm on, so I end up just not using it. But we could also make it use the physical key location. {key Shift D} is not available of course. If there is a good alternative I'm fine with using this too, my only concern is that this means there are more trade offs we have to discuss and agree on before going ahead with this patch - since finding good alternative key-bindings that work across all modes in the 3D viewport is not so easy. While walk/fly navigation are view related, I don't think it's as a hard requirement that moving the view menu key bindings changes this short-cut too. Note that Ctrl-Tilda is used to toggle gizmos, if we're changing the use of the Tilda the key we could think of changing this too ... but again this gets into the kind of scope creep which can cause patches to be left in an undecided state for long periods of time. So I'd rather avoid that unless the changes are relatively straightforward.

StrictlyIncreasing commented

2021-06-03 07:16:52 +02:00

Added subscriber: @NoBlahBlah

StrictlyIncreasing commented

2021-06-03 07:16:52 +02:00

So is this supposed to override an existing keymap/userpref.blend cause that's exactly what happened to me. I get that you want to make the keymap more accessible or better etc etc. But you can't just overwrite an existing userpref.blend without the user's permission. How would you like it if git instead of warning you that you have a merge conflict would just reset and then merge stuff into your local branch without your permission?

Campbell Barton commented

2021-06-03 08:32:20 +02:00

Unless you customize it key-map, the default key-map will always be used, that includes any changes to the default key-map as Blender is developed.

Campbell Barton commented

2021-06-03 08:32:41 +02:00

Changed status from 'Confirmed' to: 'Resolved'

Campbell Barton closed this issue

2021-06-03 08:32:41 +02:00

Campbell Barton self-assigned this 2021-06-03 08:32:41 +02:00

AnsonX10 commented

2021-06-23 01:16:10 +02:00

Added subscriber: @AnsonX10

AnsonX10 commented

2021-06-23 01:16:10 +02:00

I use a keyboard without a numpad, and the tilde key has been a perfectly adequate replacement for it.

Specifically, I frequently press tilde and 1 or 3 in quick succession to either switch to my camera view, or to "view selected." Moving the navigation pie menu to D apparently necessitates changing the event type from a "press" to a "click drag" which breaks the workflow of pressing a number key to access the pie menu's features (at least without moving the mouse first, which makes the number key shortcut pointless).

While D is a very convenient key (at least on qwerty keyboards), I'm not convinced it should replace tilde as the view navigation pie key. Particularly when it breaks other features.

I'm in the camp that believes that the key left of the 1 key (or whatever is in that physical location) should call the pie menu on all keyboards, rather than moving it somewhere else. At least for the time being. I'm not opposed to seeking better and more efficient key mappings, but this feels like a step backwards, and a hasty one at that.

I use a keyboard without a numpad, and the tilde key has been a perfectly adequate replacement for it. Specifically, I frequently press tilde and 1 or 3 in quick succession to either switch to my camera view, or to "view selected." Moving the navigation pie menu to D apparently necessitates changing the event type from a "press" to a "click drag" which breaks the workflow of pressing a number key to access the pie menu's features (at least without moving the mouse first, which makes the number key shortcut pointless). While D is a very convenient key (at least on qwerty keyboards), I'm not convinced it should replace tilde as the view navigation pie key. Particularly when it breaks other features. I'm in the camp that believes that the key left of the 1 key (or whatever is in that physical location) should call the pie menu on all keyboards, rather than moving it somewhere else. At least for the time being. I'm not opposed to seeking better and more efficient key mappings, but this feels like a step backwards, and a hasty one at that.

thin soldier commented

2021-08-29 23:04:13 +02:00

Added subscriber: @thinsoldier

thin soldier commented

2021-08-29 23:04:13 +02:00

How about using the V key? V as in View. It's not used for anything in Object Mode. In Edit Mode on meshes it's used for Rip but I think that alt+v for Rip would be more consistent with the rest of Blender. In Edit Mode on curves it opens a "set handle type" menu that is the same as what's found in the right click menu. Also alt+v is not used for anything when editing curves.

Campbell Barton commented

2021-08-30 02:35:49 +02:00

The V-key is used for:

set handle type in:
- graph-editor.
- action-editor.
- gpencil-curve editing.
- curve edit-mode.
in weight paint for setting vertex selection.
in edit-mesh for rip.
in the UV-editor for rip.
in grease pencil edit-mode (for a kind of rip).

Changing this shortcut is quite disruptive. Further, modifier combinations using V are already used in some contexts too.

We could instead make sure the key to the left of 1 (typically the ~ key) is always available for view operations.

The V-key is used for: - set handle type in: - graph-editor. - action-editor. - gpencil-curve editing. - curve edit-mode. - in weight paint for setting vertex selection. - in edit-mesh for rip. - in the UV-editor for rip. - in grease pencil edit-mode (for a kind of rip). Changing this shortcut is quite disruptive. Further, modifier combinations using V are already used in some contexts too. We could instead make sure the key to the left of 1 (typically the `~` key) is always available for view operations.

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-08-30 10:06:10 +02:00

D key can be associated with View Direction.

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-08-30 10:36:05 +02:00

Speaking of V, as it turned out, V for merge, Alt+V for rip and Shift+V for Join better fits relevance and reduces stress on the wrist by reducing using right side of a keyboard for a relevant modeling actions, since they became accessible from a single wrist position.

Thomas Dinges added this to the 3.0 milestone 2023-02-08 15:59:11 +01:00

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Keymap: use D-key for view navigation pie-menu (2nd iteration) #88092

Motivation

Proposed Solution

Conflicts

What about Annotations?

Open Topics