Grease Pencil Relationship Parenting problem #94263

New Issue

Adam Earle · 2021-12-20T02:08:36+01:00

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-20 02:08:36 +01:00

System Information
Screen

Huion (on a $100 computer arm )
Viano TV

Operating System

64 bit Windows 10 Pro
Version 4
Pen Touch Support

Processor

Intel Core i7-8700k CPU @3.70GHz 3.70GHz

Ram

32 GB

Graphics card

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960

system-info.txt

Blender Version
Broken: version: 3.0.0, branch: master, commit date: 2021-12-02 18:35, hash: f1cca30557
Worked: I am not sure if this has ever worked

Short description of error
Realationship Transformation Bug.m4v

Attached you will find the blend file
Relationship.blend
If you need more information let me know

**System Information** Screen - Huion (on a $100 computer arm ) - Viano TV Operating System - 64 bit Windows 10 Pro - Version 4 - Pen Touch Support Processor - Intel Core i7-8700k CPU @3.70GHz 3.70GHz Ram - 32 GB Graphics card - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 [system-info.txt](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12764838/system-info.txt) **Blender Version** Broken: version: 3.0.0, branch: master, commit date: 2021-12-02 18:35, hash: `f1cca30557` Worked: I am not sure if this has ever worked **Short description of error** [Realationship Transformation Bug.m4v](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12764852/Realationship_Transformation_Bug.m4v) Attached you will find the blend file [Relationship.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12764851/Relationship.blend) If you need more information let me know

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-20 02:08:36 +01:00

Added subscriber: @AdamEarle

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-20 03:02:31 +01:00

Doing more test I have realized this particular grease pencil was built in 2.93 and opened up it up in 3.0.
Recreating this in 3.0 seems to be working right now.

Please take a look at the file rebuilt completely in 3.0. There might be something in here Relationship.blend

Doing more test I have realized this particular grease pencil was built in 2.93 and opened up it up in 3.0. Recreating this in 3.0 seems to be working right now. Please take a look at the file rebuilt completely in 3.0. There might be something in here [Relationship.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12765097/Relationship.blend)

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-20 05:06:44 +01:00

actually, I have no idea what going on here it's just broken. This shouldn't be this bloody hard.

Philipp Oeser commented

2021-12-20 11:11:00 +01:00

Added subscriber: @lichtwerk

Philipp Oeser commented

2021-12-20 11:11:00 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'

Philipp Oeser commented

2021-12-20 11:11:00 +01:00

I can confirm the behavior, but I am unsure as you are in regards to this special Parent relationship that grease pencil brings.
(I can imagine this "double" parenting - regular object parenting as well as layer parenting - would bring up issues in multiple scenarios)

So I would like to gather feedback of responsible modules here...

I can confirm the behavior, but I am unsure as you are in regards to this special `Parent` relationship that grease pencil brings. (I can imagine this "double" parenting - regular object parenting as well as layer parenting - would bring up issues in multiple scenarios) So I would like to gather feedback of responsible modules here...

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-21 00:45:04 +01:00

Just running another test here is the blend file Relations Complete Scene Rebuild.blend
there is no parenting going on in here at all

No Relations.m4v

Just running another test here is the blend file [Relations Complete Scene Rebuild.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12768591/Relations_Complete_Scene_Rebuild.blend) there is no parenting going on in here at all [No Relations.m4v](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12768594/No_Relations.m4v)

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-21 02:28:55 +01:00

I have thoughts about why this is the problem. It seems that layers are being controlled by several different matrix systems.

Object-level.
Layer level.
Layer relationship level.

IMO this is too much and not needed. In using other software and moving forward to "Everything nodes" and a small understanding about other competitive packages. It would make more sense to treat Grease Pencil as ordinary objects. This would greatly simplify grease pencil. Making it easier to use easier to maintain and more predictable.

Objects in Blender store vertex data and grease pencil is no exception. Each vertex is a position in space this can be shown in the new spreadsheet if the user needs access to this information. This means that there's no reason for "transform attributes". Other software displays vertex data matrices information, there is no reason why Blender can't now.

IMO "transformation Layer attributes" were an attempt to answer layered information in space. This was treating Blender like After Effects or Toon Boom Harmony or Flash. I believe this is the wrong way to look at Grease Pencil now.

The suggestion here is to simplify the code and make it work. Blender is not Adobe After Effects, not Maya and not Toon Boom Harmony or anything else. People are attracted to Blender because it is simple. It might be time to start looking at Grease Pencil and how it can be treated more like other objects in Blender.

The outliner is simple enough to use along with the Grease Pencil Dope sheet. I mention this because this is more that than what most 2D animation softwares have. Technically the dope sheet is enough for a 2D animator both traditional and cutout.

Adopting "Nodes" and EEVEE materials:
If Blender Grease Pencil is going to be adopting "Nodes" and EEVEE materials" honestly there is no need for having layers anymore. This should simplify the whole process for Grease Pencil to be like every other ordinary object in Blender.

The most important thing to remember for Grease Pencil objects to object relationships is, masking and rigging, utilizing the asset browser, and duplicating objects.

Masking Modifier Object level.
Masking a material level.
Rigging GP object Level.
Rigging at the Curve level.
Rigging at an Armature.
Asset browser Storing information and calling information back.
Asset browser pose library.
"Duplicate linked" in order to store different material information.

Keep all effects for the compositor and materials.

I have thoughts about why this is the problem. It seems that layers are being controlled by several different matrix systems. 1. Object-level. 2. Layer level. 3. Layer relationship level. IMO this is too much and not needed. In using other software and moving forward to "Everything nodes" and a small understanding about other competitive packages. It would make more sense to treat Grease Pencil as ordinary objects. This would greatly simplify grease pencil. Making it easier to use easier to maintain and more predictable. Objects in Blender store vertex data and grease pencil is no exception. Each vertex is a position in space this can be shown in the new spreadsheet if the user needs access to this information. This means that there's no reason for "transform attributes". Other software displays vertex data matrices information, there is no reason why Blender can't now. IMO "transformation Layer attributes" were an attempt to answer layered information in space. This was treating Blender like After Effects or Toon Boom Harmony or Flash. I believe this is the wrong way to look at Grease Pencil now. The suggestion here is to simplify the code and make it work. Blender is not Adobe After Effects, not Maya and not Toon Boom Harmony or anything else. People are attracted to Blender because it is simple. It might be time to start looking at Grease Pencil and how it can be treated more like other objects in Blender. The outliner is simple enough to use along with the Grease Pencil Dope sheet. I mention this because this is more that than what most 2D animation softwares have. Technically the dope sheet is enough for a 2D animator both traditional and cutout. Adopting "Nodes" and EEVEE materials: If Blender Grease Pencil is going to be adopting "Nodes" and EEVEE materials" honestly there is no need for having layers anymore. This should simplify the whole process for Grease Pencil to be like every other ordinary object in Blender. The most important thing to remember for Grease Pencil objects to object relationships is, masking and rigging, utilizing the asset browser, and duplicating objects. 1. Masking Modifier Object level. 2. Masking a material level. 3. Rigging GP object Level. 4. Rigging at the Curve level. 5. Rigging at an Armature. 6. Asset browser Storing information and calling information back. 7. Asset browser pose library. 7. "Duplicate linked" in order to store different material information. Keep all effects for the compositor and materials.

Antonio Vazquez commented

2021-12-21 16:34:03 +01:00

Added subscriber: @antoniov

Antonio Vazquez commented

2021-12-21 16:34:03 +01:00

@AdamEarle I know your points can be logic, but the problem is you are looking at GPencil only as animator and rigger point of view.

The layer transform and layer parenting is very useful in other workflows, like storyboarding. These features were not added as a "cool" thing...they were added because we had feedback of artists that needed these features, so remove them is not good idea.

If you want use the same logic of Geometry Nodes and use only Object transform, you just don't use Layer Transform or parenting, but this is not enough reason to remove the features.

About the "there is no need for having layers anymore" phrase.... I think if we remove layers, we are removing a 2D core feature.... a lot of people wants to draw only, they don't want rigging, Nodes, modifiers, etc. 2D layers is a fundamental feature that we cannot remove.

The plan is to have Eevee materials for GPencil, but we are still thinking how support actual materials of gpencil...maybe a new shader type, maybe a conversion...no idea yet.... but we must keep a way to get simple colors with simple materials.

@AdamEarle I know your points can be logic, but the problem is you are looking at GPencil only as animator and rigger point of view. The layer transform and layer parenting is very useful in other workflows, like storyboarding. These features were not added as a "cool" thing...they were added because we had feedback of artists that needed these features, so remove them is not good idea. If you want use the same logic of Geometry Nodes and use only Object transform, you just don't use Layer Transform or parenting, but this is not enough reason to remove the features. About the "there is no need for having layers anymore" phrase.... I think if we remove layers, we are removing a 2D core feature.... a lot of people wants to draw only, they don't want rigging, Nodes, modifiers, etc. 2D layers is a fundamental feature that we cannot remove. The plan is to have Eevee materials for GPencil, but we are still thinking how support actual materials of gpencil...maybe a new shader type, maybe a conversion...no idea yet.... but we must keep a way to get simple colors with simple materials.

Adam Earle commented

2021-12-22 00:50:23 +01:00

Actually, this is a really excellent point.

"If you want use the same logic of Geometry Nodes and use only Object transform, you just don't use Layer Transform or parenting, but this is not enough reason to remove the features."

Nodes will be able to have different setups of Grease Pencil and store them as either preset or in the asset browser.

I will need to step back and think about the approach of what you have said. I understand why you mention storyboarding. I need to think about how it's been promoted. There may be a better way. The hardest thing for adoption I think is that there are so many ways to do use GP that it's hard to pick "The best way". This is both good and bad. I will need to think about workflow more.

I do believe Grease Pencil could be simplified and be more solid to work with I always push this point because I know it will help you and other devs maintain the tool.

Actually, this is a really excellent point. "If you want use the same logic of Geometry Nodes and use only Object transform, you just don't use Layer Transform or parenting, but this is not enough reason to remove the features." Nodes will be able to have different setups of Grease Pencil and store them as either preset or in the asset browser. I will need to step back and think about the approach of what you have said. I understand why you mention storyboarding. I need to think about how it's been promoted. There may be a better way. The hardest thing for adoption I think is that there are so many ways to do use GP that it's hard to pick "The best way". This is both good and bad. I will need to think about workflow more. I do believe Grease Pencil could be simplified and be more solid to work with I always push this point because I know it will help you and other devs maintain the tool.

Philipp Oeser commented

2022-01-04 11:24:43 +01:00

I am reading this as "Known Issue".

Philipp Oeser removed the

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Grease Pencil Relationship Parenting problem #94263