Prototype for Node Layers / Modifier Tree #95472

Open
opened 2022-02-03 15:35:41 +01:00 by Jacques Lucke · 17 comments
Member

I worked on a little prototype for a layered view on a node group which could replace the current modifier stack. This is not a full design but a starting point to get an idea for how this kind of system could work.

The prototype is implemented as an addon that can be downloaded here: https://github.com/JacquesLucke/node_layers_prototype.

The prototypes adds an hierarchical view on a geometry node group in the properties editor. It allows adding, removing and changing nodes without using the node editor. Typically, a user would either use the node editor or this layered view depending on the required complexity. The basic idea is similar to how a material node tree is displayed in the properties editor. The main difference is that this new layered view is much more compact and the settings are in a separate panel. This more compact format makes it more suitable for more complex setups as long as not much nesting is required.

2022-02-03 15-31-59.mp4

I'm also wondering if the same layered view could be used for "layered texture painting" (and possibly other use cases as well). That's a bit harder to prototype right now, but currently I imagine it like so:

  • There is an "Image" (or "Texture") socket which can contain multiple named "passes". That is conceptually quite similar to a geometry with named attributes.
  • The texture data block can reference a node group that outputs the (possibly generated) texture, including all the passes.
  • A shader can access all the different named passes in a texture separately.
  • For a PBR workflow we define naming conventions for the different passes (e.g. diffuse, roughness, ...).
  • There is a Mix Images node that mixes two images based on some mask. Passes on both images which have the same name are mixed as well.
  • Multiple such Mix Images nodes can be chained to mix different "pbr materials".
  • The layered view implemented in this prototype would draw this node chain as a typical image layer stack.
  • When the user clicks on a specific Mix Images node/layer, the corresponding mask texture could become active for drawing in the viewport.

I haven't really thought all that through, and don't have much experience with texture paining anyway, but it seems doable.

I worked on a little prototype for a layered view on a node group which could replace the current modifier stack. This is not a full design but a starting point to get an idea for how this kind of system could work. The prototype is implemented as an addon that can be downloaded here: https://github.com/JacquesLucke/node_layers_prototype. The prototypes adds an hierarchical view on a geometry node group in the properties editor. It allows adding, removing and changing nodes without using the node editor. Typically, a user would either use the node editor or this layered view depending on the required complexity. The basic idea is similar to how a material node tree is displayed in the properties editor. The main difference is that this new layered view is much more compact and the settings are in a separate panel. This more compact format makes it more suitable for more complex setups as long as not much nesting is required. [2022-02-03 15-31-59.mp4](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12843857/2022-02-03_15-31-59.mp4) I'm also wondering if the same layered view could be used for "layered texture painting" (and possibly other use cases as well). That's a bit harder to prototype right now, but currently I imagine it like so: * There is an "Image" (or "Texture") socket which can contain multiple named "passes". That is conceptually quite similar to a geometry with named attributes. * The texture data block can reference a node group that outputs the (possibly generated) texture, including all the passes. * A shader can access all the different named passes in a texture separately. * For a PBR workflow we define naming conventions for the different passes (e.g. `diffuse`, `roughness`, ...). * There is a `Mix Images` node that mixes two images based on some mask. Passes on both images which have the same name are mixed as well. * Multiple such `Mix Images` nodes can be chained to mix different "pbr materials". * The layered view implemented in this prototype would draw this node chain as a typical image layer stack. * When the user clicks on a specific Mix Images node/layer, the corresponding mask texture could become active for drawing in the viewport. I haven't really thought all that through, and don't have much experience with texture paining anyway, but it seems doable.
Author
Member

Added subscriber: @JacquesLucke

Added subscriber: @JacquesLucke
Jacques Lucke changed title from Node Layers Prototype to Prototype for Node Layers / Modifier Tree 2022-02-03 16:15:12 +01:00
Member

Added subscriber: @HooglyBoogly

Added subscriber: @HooglyBoogly

Added subscriber: @guitargeek

Added subscriber: @guitargeek

Added subscriber: @mod_moder

Added subscriber: @mod_moder
Contributor

Added subscriber: @Rawalanche

Added subscriber: @Rawalanche
Contributor

I like the idea as a means of deprecating the current modifiers. At the same time, I am not sure how well it would work to make GN more accessible to people unfamiliar with node based workflows.

One idea could be to make only specific higher level nodes accessible from this UI. This would also mean that custom node groups should receive some UI flag for the authors to determine of the node groups they made are "high level" enough to appear in this restricted list of nodes available from the Node Layer stack. But this would come with some obvious drawbacks.

The other idea would be to allow any nodes to be used through this UI. But this would mean that it would not be much of a benefit for new users because they would get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of available nodes, and eventually, they'd learn it as just an inferior way of putting together GN node networks. Also, I am not sure how this system would accommodate for the situations where node network branches out and then branches back together. Such situations are difficult to express in vertical layer stack.

If the plan is to eventually remove the current (in the future legacy) modifiers, then I am all for it. I am just not sure whether it's better idea to restrict these Node layers just to some pre-made GN networks emulating the old modifiers, to provide familiar workflow to users used to current modifier stack, or if to overwhelm them with the complete set of possibilities GN offers, with the UI system which doesn't accommodate for those possibilities well.

I like the idea as a means of deprecating the current modifiers. At the same time, I am not sure how well it would work to make GN more accessible to people unfamiliar with node based workflows. One idea could be to make only specific higher level nodes accessible from this UI. This would also mean that custom node groups should receive some UI flag for the authors to determine of the node groups they made are "high level" enough to appear in this restricted list of nodes available from the Node Layer stack. But this would come with some obvious drawbacks. The other idea would be to allow any nodes to be used through this UI. But this would mean that it would not be much of a benefit for new users because they would get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of available nodes, and eventually, they'd learn it as just an inferior way of putting together GN node networks. Also, I am not sure how this system would accommodate for the situations where node network branches out and then branches back together. Such situations are difficult to express in vertical layer stack. If the plan is to eventually remove the current (in the future legacy) modifiers, then I am all for it. I am just not sure whether it's better idea to restrict these Node layers just to some pre-made GN networks emulating the old modifiers, to provide familiar workflow to users used to current modifier stack, or if to overwhelm them with the complete set of possibilities GN offers, with the UI system which doesn't accommodate for those possibilities well.
Contributor

Added subscriber: @RedMser

Added subscriber: @RedMser

Added subscriber: @Garek

Added subscriber: @Garek

Added subscriber: @Robonnet

Added subscriber: @Robonnet

Added subscriber: @GeorgiaPacific

Added subscriber: @GeorgiaPacific

Added subscriber: @Kuboa

Added subscriber: @Kuboa

Added subscriber: @Cigitia

Added subscriber: @Cigitia
Member

Added subscriber: @lichtwerk

Added subscriber: @lichtwerk
Member

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'
Member

@JacquesLucke : I assume all newly created DESIGNs from your side are confirmed?

@JacquesLucke : I assume all newly created DESIGNs from your side are confirmed?

Added subscriber: @Galagax

Added subscriber: @Galagax

Hello Jacques,

It has been any discussion on this prototype?

Thanks for your time

Hello Jacques, It has been any discussion on this prototype? Thanks for your time
Philipp Oeser removed the
Interest
Nodes & Physics
label 2023-02-10 08:44:16 +01:00
Sign in to join this conversation.
No Label
Interest
Alembic
Interest
Animation & Rigging
Interest
Asset Browser
Interest
Asset Browser Project Overview
Interest
Audio
Interest
Automated Testing
Interest
Blender Asset Bundle
Interest
BlendFile
Interest
Collada
Interest
Compatibility
Interest
Compositing
Interest
Core
Interest
Cycles
Interest
Dependency Graph
Interest
Development Management
Interest
EEVEE
Interest
EEVEE & Viewport
Interest
Freestyle
Interest
Geometry Nodes
Interest
Grease Pencil
Interest
ID Management
Interest
Images & Movies
Interest
Import Export
Interest
Line Art
Interest
Masking
Interest
Metal
Interest
Modeling
Interest
Modifiers
Interest
Motion Tracking
Interest
Nodes & Physics
Interest
OpenGL
Interest
Overlay
Interest
Overrides
Interest
Performance
Interest
Physics
Interest
Pipeline, Assets & IO
Interest
Platforms, Builds & Tests
Interest
Python API
Interest
Render & Cycles
Interest
Render Pipeline
Interest
Sculpt, Paint & Texture
Interest
Text Editor
Interest
Translations
Interest
Triaging
Interest
Undo
Interest
USD
Interest
User Interface
Interest
UV Editing
Interest
VFX & Video
Interest
Video Sequencer
Interest
Virtual Reality
Interest
Vulkan
Interest
Wayland
Interest
Workbench
Interest: X11
Legacy
Blender 2.8 Project
Legacy
Milestone 1: Basic, Local Asset Browser
Legacy
OpenGL Error
Meta
Good First Issue
Meta
Papercut
Meta
Retrospective
Meta
Security
Module
Animation & Rigging
Module
Core
Module
Development Management
Module
EEVEE & Viewport
Module
Grease Pencil
Module
Modeling
Module
Nodes & Physics
Module
Pipeline, Assets & IO
Module
Platforms, Builds & Tests
Module
Python API
Module
Render & Cycles
Module
Sculpt, Paint & Texture
Module
Triaging
Module
User Interface
Module
VFX & Video
Platform
FreeBSD
Platform
Linux
Platform
macOS
Platform
Windows
Priority
High
Priority
Low
Priority
Normal
Priority
Unbreak Now!
Status
Archived
Status
Confirmed
Status
Duplicate
Status
Needs Info from Developers
Status
Needs Information from User
Status
Needs Triage
Status
Resolved
Type
Bug
Type
Design
Type
Known Issue
Type
Patch
Type
Report
Type
To Do
No Milestone
No project
No Assignees
13 Participants
Notifications
Due Date
The due date is invalid or out of range. Please use the format 'yyyy-mm-dd'.

No due date set.

Dependencies

No dependencies set.

Reference: blender/blender#95472
No description provided.