Should "Make instances real" keep animation data from original objects? #81577

New Issue

Yashar · 2020-10-09T14:18:37+02:00

Yashar commented

2020-10-09 14:18:37 +02:00

System Information
Operating system: Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1 64 Bits
Graphics card: GeForce GTX 1070/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 456.38

Blender Version
Broken: version: 2.91.0 Alpha, branch: master, commit date: 2020-09-25 20:54, hash: 83dc97ccc0
Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected)

Short description of error
Make instances real removes object drivers.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error
Description:
In the attached file there is a cube which is included in a collection named "Box".
The cube has a simple driver on the location X axis.
In Scene.001 there is a collection instance of "Box" collection.
When i make instances real, new cube does not have the driver.

Steps:
Go to Scene.001
Select the collection instance
Press Ctrl+A > Apply Menu > Make Instances Real
Make Instances Real Removes Drivers.blend

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1 64 Bits Graphics card: GeForce GTX 1070/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 456.38 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 2.91.0 Alpha, branch: master, commit date: 2020-09-25 20:54, hash: `83dc97ccc0` Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected) **Short description of error** Make instances real removes object drivers. **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** Description: In the attached file there is a cube which is included in a collection named "Box". The cube has a simple driver on the location X axis. In Scene.001 there is a collection instance of "Box" collection. When i make instances real, new cube does not have the driver. Steps: Go to Scene.001 Select the collection instance Press Ctrl+A > Apply Menu > Make Instances Real [Make Instances Real Removes Drivers.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8971081/Make_Instances_Real_Removes_Drivers.blend)

blender-admin commented

2020-10-09 14:18:37 +02:00

#90773 was marked as duplicate of this issue

Yashar commented

2020-10-09 14:18:39 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Yashar

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-10-09 15:04:53 +02:00

Added subscriber: @lichtwerk

Philipp Oeser commented

2020-10-09 15:04:53 +02:00

Not sure if this would be desired behavior in all cases.
Should it also copy regular Actions (not just drivers)?

Maybe this a candidate for respecting this User Preference as well?

Pointing out this is not a bug atm. it happens on purpose [just does BKE_id_copy - which does not copy animation data, and even explicitly removes animdata and constraints BKE_animdata_free / BKE_constraints_free]

Not sure if this would be desired behavior in all cases. Should it also copy regular Actions (not just drivers)? Maybe this a candidate for respecting this User Preference as well? ![image.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8971193/image.png) Pointing out this is not a bug atm. it happens on purpose [just does `BKE_id_copy` - which does not copy animation data, and even explicitly removes animdata and constraints `BKE_animdata_free` / `BKE_constraints_free`]

Bastien Montagne changed title from ~~Make instances real doesn't keep drivers~~ to Should "Make instances real" keep anitmation data from original objects?

2020-10-09 17:44:49 +02:00

Bastien Montagne commented

2020-10-09 17:45:11 +02:00

Added subscriber: @mont29

Bastien Montagne commented

2020-10-09 17:45:11 +02:00

Definitively not a bug, at best a TODO if there is consensus to change that behavior.

@lichtwerk would not use those userprefs here, this is not a real copy…

Definitively not a bug, at best a TODO **if** there is consensus to change that behavior. @lichtwerk would not use those userprefs here, this is not a real copy…

Yashar commented

2020-10-09 23:26:49 +02:00

I think if it is not a bug it is inconsistency when duplicating objects keeps drivers and make duplicates real doesn't keep.
What is the purpose of duplicating objects without drivers this way?
Collection instance and make duplicates real is a good way for duplicating and instancing objects among different scenes and it would be nice to have similar behaviors to standard duplicating.

I think if it is not a bug it is inconsistency when duplicating objects keeps drivers and make duplicates real doesn't keep. What is the purpose of duplicating objects without drivers this way? Collection instance and make duplicates real is a good way for duplicating and instancing objects among different scenes and it would be nice to have similar behaviors to standard duplicating.

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-10-12 14:14:08 +02:00

Added subscriber: @dr.sybren

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-10-12 14:14:08 +02:00

I wouldn't mind if animation data would be copied/referenced as well. The question is still whether to duplicate the Action, or to keep referencing the same one as the original.

In #81577#1031340, @mont29 wrote:
would not use those userprefs here, this is not a real copy…

Why is this not a "real" copy? What is a "real" copy, and how is this different? This isn't intended to sound as sarcastic as it might read, I'm genuinely interested.

I wouldn't mind if animation data would be copied/referenced as well. The question is still whether to duplicate the Action, or to keep referencing the same one as the original. > In #81577#1031340, @mont29 wrote: > would not use those userprefs here, this is not a real copy… Why is this not a "real" copy? What is a "real" copy, and how is this different? This isn't intended to sound as sarcastic as it might read, I'm genuinely interested.

Bastien Montagne commented

2020-10-12 17:46:18 +02:00

@dr.sybren for me, make instance real primary usage is to generate objects from dupli objects (think particles), not really to be used on an instancing Empty (there are many other ways to do that from the outliner, and get proper instancing in viewlayer then, that you can duplicate in regular ways). In that sense, it's not like actively copying a selected object.

I am mostly wary about case likes particle instances, do we want all of those instantiated objects to get animadata of the original as well? And if we follow the logic, then they should also get duplicates of obdata and materials if those options are enabled in user preferences as well…

@dr.sybren for me, `make instance real` primary usage is to generate objects from dupli objects (think particles), not really to be used on an instancing Empty (there are many other ways to do that from the outliner, and get proper instancing in viewlayer then, that you can duplicate in regular ways). In that sense, it's not like actively copying a selected object. I am mostly wary about case likes particle instances, do we want all of those instantiated objects to get animadata of the original as well? And if we follow the logic, then they should also get duplicates of obdata and materials if those options are enabled in user preferences as well…

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2020-10-15 14:40:43 +02:00

In #81577#1032615, @mont29 wrote:
@dr.sybren for me, make instance real primary usage is to generate objects from dupli objects (think particles), not really to be used on an instancing Empty (there are many other ways to do that from the outliner, and get proper instancing in viewlayer then, that you can duplicate in regular ways). In that sense, it's not like actively copying a selected object.

How do you do that from the outliner? This is what I see when I go to Scene.001, then right-click on the "Box" collection:

None of these suggest "Make instance real" to me.

I am mostly wary about case likes particle instances, do we want all of those instantiated objects to get animadata of the original as well? And if we follow the logic, then they should also get duplicates of obdata and materials if those options are enabled in user preferences as well…

Good point.

> In #81577#1032615, @mont29 wrote: > @dr.sybren for me, `make instance real` primary usage is to generate objects from dupli objects (think particles), not really to be used on an instancing Empty (there are many other ways to do that from the outliner, and get proper instancing in viewlayer then, that you can duplicate in regular ways). In that sense, it's not like actively copying a selected object. How do you do that from the outliner? This is what I see when I go to Scene.001, then right-click on the "Box" collection: ![image.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8994531/image.png) None of these suggest "Make instance real" to me. > I am mostly wary about case likes particle instances, do we want all of those instantiated objects to get animadata of the original as well? And if we follow the logic, then they should also get duplicates of obdata and materials if those options are enabled in user preferences as well… Good point.

Bastien Montagne commented

2020-10-15 16:26:13 +02:00

@dr.sybren this is a viewport operation (Object -> Apply menu)

@dr.sybren this is a viewport operation (`Object -> Apply` menu)

Yashar commented

2020-11-16 16:52:44 +01:00

From outliner you can only link in a collection instance to scene, not a real copy of collection.

Philipp Oeser commented

2021-01-06 17:13:20 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'

Philipp Oeser commented

2021-01-06 17:13:20 +01:00

Will set this to confirmed for now (so it forces us to have a look again or make a decision somehow...)

Bastien Montagne changed title from ~~Should "Make instances real" keep anitmation data from original objects?~~ to Should "Make instances real" keep animation data from original objects?

2021-01-06 17:27:19 +01:00

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2021-01-11 12:42:47 +01:00

In #81577#1034901, @mont29 wrote:
@dr.sybren this is a viewport operation (Object -> Apply menu)

Doh, thanks.

In #81577#1032615, @mont29 wrote:
I am mostly wary about case likes particle instances, do we want all of those instantiated objects to get animadata of the original as well? And if we follow the logic, then they should also get duplicates of obdata and materials if those options are enabled in user preferences as well…

Would it be possible to distinguish between

objects instanced as particles, and
objects instanced by an empty?

When you have an animated object instanced via an empty, it the instance behaves as individual object. To me it would make sense to have the result of "Make Instances Real" try and preserve as much of its animation as possible. What do you think @mont29?

> In #81577#1034901, @mont29 wrote: > @dr.sybren this is a viewport operation (`Object -> Apply` menu) Doh, thanks. > In #81577#1032615, @mont29 wrote: > I am mostly wary about case likes particle instances, do we want all of those instantiated objects to get animadata of the original as well? And if we follow the logic, then they should also get duplicates of obdata and materials if those options are enabled in user preferences as well… Would it be possible to distinguish between - objects instanced as particles, and - objects instanced by an empty? When you have an animated object instanced via an empty, it the instance behaves as individual object. To me it would make sense to have the result of "Make Instances Real" try and preserve as much of its animation as possible. What do you think @mont29?

Bastien Montagne commented

2021-01-12 12:51:37 +01:00

@dr.sybren should be possible yes, DupliObject has a particle_system member for instances generated by particles. Not 100% convinced this is the way to go though, at least this would need a very good documentation, since we'd have a single operator generating two completely different kind of results depending on the input data type...

Think this is a topic of UI/UX department?

@dr.sybren should be possible yes, `DupliObject` has a `particle_system` member for instances generated by particles. Not 100% convinced this is the way to go though, at least this would need a very good documentation, since we'd have a single operator generating two completely different kind of results depending on the input data type... Think this is a topic of UI/UX department?

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2021-01-12 16:14:25 +01:00

UI: no, but UX: yeah, probably it is.

I agree that having one operation perform different actions is not a good thing.
On the other hand, to me it doesn't make sense that the flow in this task (having a collection instanced, and being able to say "turn this into real objects") discards animation. It's a bit wider discussion than just the animation module, though, as it's also touching on generic data management.

UI: no, but UX: yeah, probably it is. I agree that having one operation perform different actions is not a good thing. On the other hand, to me it doesn't make sense that the flow in this task (having a collection instanced, and being able to say "turn this into real objects") discards animation. It's a bit wider discussion than just the animation module, though, as it's also touching on generic data management.

Philipp Oeser commented

2021-08-19 15:39:46 +02:00

Added subscribers: @BlenderTrek, @PratikPB2123

Philipp Oeser removed the

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Should "Make instances real" keep animation data from original objects? #81577