Move all Grease Pencil Settings to the Toolbar Tab #38540

New Issue

Jonathan Williamson · 2014-02-07T16:48:47+01:00

2014-02-07 16:48:47 +01:00

Current Situation

The grease pencil is presently split between the toolbar and the properties in the 3D View. In other editors it's only in the properties panel and there's no access to the draw tools except with hotkeys.

This has a couple of problems:

There's a bad visual disconnect between the tool actions and the tool settings. I believe most users expect the settings for their present tool to be located next to the tool its self. This makes the learning curve worse than it should be and also forces the user to move back and forth from one side of the screen to the other when trying to draw with the grease pencil and then make changes (assuming they're not using hotkeys).
The grease pencil panels are inconsistent across editors. The 3D View has both the toolbar panel and the properties panel. Whereas the Image Editor, Node Editor, Movie Clip Editor, and probably others only have the properties panel.

Proposed Improvement

To fix this inconsistency and disconnect between the grease pencil tools and it's settings, I suggest we merge both the Grease Pencil Draw panel and the Grease Pencil properties panel into a single section, under the Grease Pencil Tab in the Toolbar.

This was discussed a fair bit in D84 and seems to have general consensus.

Advantages

Combining the Grease Pencil panels in this way improves a few key things:

The tools and settings are both accessible in the same place, making it much easier for users to find and utilize. This is particularly true for new users.
Save space by utilizing the new toolbar tabs, keeping everything in one place and giving more room to the properties region (which is overwhelming right now).

Can easily be made consistent across all editors without affects existing layouts and organization. Simply add the Grease Pencil tab to each applicable editor.

Disadvantages

The main point I can think of for disadvantages is that doing this breaks the Tool / Settings separation paradigm that was put in place for 2.5. However, as discussed in D84, this has proven to have some impractical consequences (like this exact issue) that don't really make sense to keep so far separated.

Development Tasks

If accepted I'm happy to implement these changes myself.

## Current Situation The grease pencil is presently split between the toolbar and the properties in the 3D View. In other editors it's only in the properties panel and there's no access to the draw tools except with hotkeys. **This has a couple of problems:** - There's a bad visual disconnect between the tool actions and the tool settings. I believe most users expect the settings for their present tool to be located next to the tool its self. This makes the learning curve worse than it should be and also forces the user to move back and forth from one side of the screen to the other when trying to draw with the grease pencil and then make changes (assuming they're not using hotkeys). - The grease pencil panels are inconsistent across editors. The 3D View has both the toolbar panel and the properties panel. Whereas the Image Editor, Node Editor, Movie Clip Editor, and probably others only have the properties panel. ## Proposed Improvement To fix this inconsistency and disconnect between the grease pencil tools and it's settings, I suggest we merge both the Grease Pencil Draw panel and the Grease Pencil properties panel into a single section, under the **Grease Pencil Tab** in the Toolbar. ![3dview_toolbar_greasepencil_unify01.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F76364/3dview_toolbar_greasepencil_unify01.png) This was discussed a fair bit in [D84](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D84) and seems to have general consensus. ### Advantages Combining the Grease Pencil panels in this way improves a few key things: - The tools and settings are both accessible in the same place, making it much easier for users to find and utilize. This is particularly true for new users. - Save space by utilizing the new toolbar tabs, keeping everything in one place and giving more room to the properties region (which is overwhelming right now). # Can easily be made consistent across all editors without affects existing layouts and organization. Simply add the Grease Pencil tab to each applicable editor. ### Disadvantages The main point I can think of for disadvantages is that doing this breaks the Tool / Settings separation paradigm that was put in place for 2.5. However, as discussed in [D84](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D84), this has proven to have some impractical consequences (like this exact issue) that don't really make sense to keep so far separated. ## Development Tasks If accepted I'm happy to implement these changes myself.

Jonathan Williamson commented

2014-02-07 16:48:47 +01:00

Changed status to: 'Open'

Jonathan Williamson commented

2014-02-07 16:48:47 +01:00

Added subscribers: @JonathanWilliamson, @billrey, @brecht, @JoshuaLeung

blender-admin commented

2014-02-07 16:48:47 +01:00

#42988 was marked as duplicate of this issue

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-07 17:57:50 +01:00

Added subscriber: @ideasman42

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-07 17:57:50 +01:00

I can see why you might do this but as you note,

My main concern is the reason to do this is mostly because its a nice-fit, at the moment.
but that might not always be the case (realistically I dont see it changing soon though).

Do we move the buttons back if more tools get added to grease pencil and it no longer fits so well?
A user may well ask - why do I add-remove background images on one side of the screen, and add/remove grease pencil on the other?

If you think of photoshop's toolbar, you wouldn't think to add the layer manager to it, just because our toolbar is wider and text this seems less strange, but its still a bit of mis-use imho.
From the screenshot it looks like you made the toolbar wider then the default (not 100% sure), even then there is only 2 characters to see the grease pencil layers name (this should be improved anyway), but there is a little more space on the other region.

Also, users would end up wanting to make the toolbar wider just so they can manage grease pencil layers - which conflicts a bit, with most/all other uses which where it works fairly well when its narrow.

It also sets a precedent that any devs can just break our conventions when it suits them, over time I worry we end up with a mish-mash of buttons in both regions.

overall -1, though I think its worth to consider some ways to improve the workflow still...

I can see why you might do this but as you note, My main concern is the reason to do this is mostly because its a nice-fit, at the moment. but that might not always be the case (realistically I dont see it changing soon though). - Do we move the buttons back if more tools get added to grease pencil and it no longer fits so well? - A user may well ask - why do I add-remove background images on one side of the screen, and add/remove grease pencil on the other? If you think of photoshop's toolbar, you wouldn't think to add the layer manager to it, just because our toolbar is wider and text this seems less strange, but its still a bit of mis-use imho. From the screenshot it looks like you made the toolbar wider then the default (not 100% sure), even then there is only 2 characters to see the grease pencil layers name (this should be improved anyway), but there is a little more space on the other region. Also, users would end up wanting to make the toolbar wider just so they can manage grease pencil layers - which conflicts a bit, with most/all other uses which where it works fairly well when its narrow. It also sets a precedent that any devs can just break our conventions when it suits them, over time I worry we end up with a mish-mash of buttons in both regions. overall -1, though I think its worth to consider some ways to improve the workflow still...

xrg commented

2014-02-07 18:12:27 +01:00

Added subscriber: @xrg

Jonathan Williamson commented

2014-02-07 18:26:05 +01:00

Those are valid concerns, certainly. The last thing I want to do is cause a weird mash up of tool locations and such.

That being said, I think we should consider (perhaps on a larger scale) how well the Tool / Settings separation paradigm really works. It works great when considering things like scene/viewport settings (Matcap, grid size, only render, etc, etc). However, when those settings are tool specific, then I don't believe it works so well.

In the case of the Grease Pencil layers, I don't think the Photoshop Layers comparison is a good example. The reason being that everything you do in Photoshop acts on, and interacts with those layers. But with Grease Pencil layers it's only the grease pencil. They are layers specific to that tool. Similar to how Deform Modifiers are specific to the object they are assigned too.

However, the Photoshop layers comparison is more true when considering that Grease Pencil layers are not wholly editor specific. For example, if you draw on the View for Layer 01 in the 3D View, that same layer can be shown in the Image Editor. But if you draw on Layer 02 via the object Surface in the 3D View, that layer (or at least the surface strokes of that layer) are not compatible with the Image Editor. The View settings are per stroke. Just like most mesh tool settings are per use of the tool.

Considering all of this, perhaps it's better to not combine everything into the Toolbar, but rather to rework how the Draw Settings, the Layers, and the Draw Tools are organized amongst each other?

Those are valid concerns, certainly. The last thing I want to do is cause a weird mash up of tool locations and such. That being said, I think we should consider (perhaps on a larger scale) how well the Tool / Settings separation paradigm really works. It works great when considering things like scene/viewport settings (Matcap, grid size, only render, etc, etc). However, when those settings are tool specific, then I don't believe it works so well. In the case of the Grease Pencil layers, I don't think the Photoshop Layers comparison is a good example. The reason being that everything you do in Photoshop acts on, and interacts with those layers. But with Grease Pencil layers it's only the grease pencil. They are layers specific to that tool. Similar to how Deform Modifiers are specific to the object they are assigned too. However, the Photoshop layers comparison is more true when considering that Grease Pencil layers are not wholly editor specific. For example, if you draw on the View for Layer 01 in the 3D View, that same layer can be shown in the Image Editor. But if you draw on Layer 02 via the object Surface in the 3D View, that layer (or at least the surface strokes of that layer) are not compatible with the Image Editor. The View settings are per stroke. Just like most mesh tool settings are per use of the tool. Considering all of this, perhaps it's better to not combine everything into the Toolbar, but rather to rework how the Draw Settings, the Layers, and the Draw Tools are organized amongst each other?

xrg commented

2014-02-07 22:18:58 +01:00

Wouldn't grouping Grease Pencil settings in one place bereducing the mish-mash of buttons in both regions, rather than setting a precedent? As it stands, most things seem to be placed rather arbitrarily between the two anyway. The Properties Panel only seems to take into account Object/Edit mode and has little regard for any other modes. Virtually every other mode just winds up with everything dumped into the Tool Shelf wherever it will fit.

I suppose my biggest critique against having Grease Pencil split between regions is that it doesn't increase productivity in any way. It seems to just be paying homage to Photoshop even at the risk of inconveniencing Blender users.

Anyway +1 from me for this change. That texture paint doc I posted in the other thread has an idea for a potential workflow improvement to the grease pencil layers to keep them from eating so much UI space.

Wouldn't grouping Grease Pencil settings in one place be*reducing* the mish-mash of buttons in both regions, rather than setting a precedent? As it stands, most things seem to be placed rather arbitrarily between the two anyway. The Properties Panel only seems to take into account Object/Edit mode and has little regard for any other modes. Virtually every other mode just winds up with everything dumped into the Tool Shelf wherever it will fit. I suppose my biggest critique against having Grease Pencil split between regions is that it doesn't increase productivity in any way. It seems to just be paying homage to Photoshop even at the risk of inconveniencing Blender users. Anyway +1 from me for this change. That [texture paint doc ](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eQ_JCAGLd_T1BUsBepGqHcKVHnHUVix_nUQJdbSX3Tk/edit#heading=h.c1gwzrxsxrho) I posted in the other thread has an idea for a potential workflow improvement to the grease pencil layers to keep them from eating so much UI space.

Scott Petrovic commented

2014-02-08 04:46:45 +01:00

Added subscriber: @scottyp

Scott Petrovic commented

2014-02-08 04:46:45 +01:00

I think the deeper issue is that the UI is currently too inflexible to have a good solution for the grease pencil. The grease pencil isn't going to be very easy to use because it has all three of these areas. Fixing the issue here will make it inconsistent with the current UI patterns that we have. The current separation with tools seem to be this.

tool
properties
settings

The difficult part with this separation is that managing one tool (like the grease pencil) is going to be scattered across the entire interface if we are consistent. Tools are on the left, settings are in the middle, and the properties space is on the right. This is the pattern that blender tries to adhere to.

But wait! The properties space isn't on every layout - like the UV layout. We have to find somewhere else to put the properties. Where should it go?

The fact that some layouts don't have a properties space breaks the entire UI model with this application in my opinion. It is the reason why there are so many random things in the settings area. You cannot organize something effectively when the organization pattern itself changes with different layouts. You have to come up with hacks that don't adhere to the standard pattern.

The solution I have has been brought up before, but maybe it is too much work to pursue. This would solve the grease pencil tool, as well as many other areas in the application. Thedifferent areas in the application need to be organized at a more granular level. The grease pencil doesn't fit in with other things, so it needs its own area (or panel, or dockable panel).

This would also allow the application to be much more flexible, so layouts could be configured and customized far better than what it currently is. It would eliminate all of the redundancy like transform tools and where settings vs. properties should go.

A program like Photoshop has over 20+ areas that can be shown, hidden, or re-organized for different workflows - and all it does is edit images.

Does anyone have issues with this type of direction? It seems a little out of scope for this issue, but @JonathanWilliamson mentioned the larger picture with settings, properties, and tools.

I think the deeper issue is that the UI is currently too inflexible to have a good solution for the grease pencil. The grease pencil isn't going to be very easy to use because it has all three of these areas. Fixing the issue here will make it inconsistent with the current UI patterns that we have. The current separation with tools seem to be this. 1. tool 2. properties 3. settings The difficult part with this separation is that managing one tool (like the grease pencil) is going to be scattered across the entire interface if we are consistent. Tools are on the left, settings are in the middle, and the properties space is on the right. This is the pattern that blender tries to adhere to. But wait! The properties space isn't on every layout - like the UV layout. We have to find somewhere else to put the properties. Where should it go? The fact that some layouts don't have a properties space breaks the entire UI model with this application in my opinion. It is the reason why there are so many random things in the settings area. You cannot organize something effectively when the organization pattern itself changes with different layouts. You have to come up with hacks that don't adhere to the standard pattern. The solution I have has been brought up before, but maybe it is too much work to pursue. This would solve the grease pencil tool, as well as many other areas in the application. The**different areas in the application need to be organized at a more granular level**. The grease pencil doesn't fit in with other things, so it needs its own area (or panel, or dockable panel). This would also allow the application to be much more flexible, so layouts could be configured and customized far better than what it currently is. It would eliminate all of the redundancy like transform tools and where settings vs. properties should go. A program like Photoshop has over 20+ areas that can be shown, hidden, or re-organized for different workflows - and all it does is edit images. Does anyone have issues with this type of direction? It seems a little out of scope for this issue, but @JonathanWilliamson mentioned the larger picture with settings, properties, and tools.

Bryce C commented

2014-02-08 14:58:29 +01:00

Added subscriber: @BC369

Bryce C commented

2014-02-08 14:58:29 +01:00

I think footer bars should be removed from all windows and only have header bars to maintain consistency.

I also think the properties panel should be become similar to the toolbar panel. As in it is no longer a window but a panel that can pop-out from the side just like the toolbar panel. With the new vertical tabs concept I believe this would work nicely with the properties panel. The tools panel on the Left of the screen and the Properties panel on the right.

Here are a couple of simple mock-ups I made representing these ideas. Thanks!

I think footer bars should be removed from all windows and only have header bars to maintain consistency. I also think the properties panel should be become similar to the toolbar panel. As in it is no longer a window but a panel that can pop-out from the side just like the toolbar panel. With the new vertical tabs concept I believe this would work nicely with the properties panel. The tools panel on the Left of the screen and the Properties panel on the right.![Blender_UI_Proposal_1.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F76458/Blender_UI_Proposal_1.png) ![Blender_UI_Proposal_2.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F76460/Blender_UI_Proposal_2.png) Here are a couple of simple mock-ups I made representing these ideas. Thanks!

Thomas Dinges commented

2014-02-08 15:25:52 +01:00

Added subscriber: @ThomasDinges

Thomas Dinges commented

2014-02-08 15:25:52 +01:00

@BC369: How is that related to Grease Pencil? Reposting your design proposal in a place where it is off topic, is not really nice.

Bryce C commented

2014-02-08 15:38:40 +01:00

My appologies. I'm confused on the posting process here as this is my first time. Anyway I won't be participating anymore in the future.

But to answer your question this discussion seemed to me to be more than just about the grease pencil. As was stated above there is a disconnect in ui placement for tools properties and settings. Now my design is just a cheesy mock up and does not contain the answer to the problem. However I think it presents a different approach to organizing tools properties and settings. It could also give someone else an idea that might solve the problem.

I had no intention of being "not nice". Have a good day and thanks for all the hard work you all do! Blender is a fantastic product!

My appologies. I'm confused on the posting process here as this is my first time. Anyway I won't be participating anymore in the future. But to answer your question this discussion seemed to me to be more than just about the grease pencil. As was stated above there is a disconnect in ui placement for tools properties and settings. Now my design is just a cheesy mock up and does not contain the answer to the problem. However I think it presents a different approach to organizing tools properties and settings. It could also give someone else an idea that might solve the problem. I had no intention of being "not nice". Have a good day and thanks for all the hard work you all do! Blender is a fantastic product!

Jonathan Williamson commented

2014-02-08 16:39:15 +01:00

@BC369, there's no need to refrain from participating. By all means. Your mockups and input are welcome. For future reference, though, since there's so many different issues and such to discuss try to keep them as on topic as possible.

In many cases, a discussion will reveal larger issues (such as your mention of UI disconnect) and in this case it's better to start up a new proposal on the WIKI, with a separate discussion, that can then reference this and other relevant issues.

@BC369, there's no need to refrain from participating. By all means. Your mockups and input are welcome. For future reference, though, since there's so many different issues and such to discuss try to keep them as on topic as possible. In many cases, a discussion will reveal larger issues (such as your mention of UI disconnect) and in this case it's better to start up a new proposal on the WIKI, with a separate discussion, that can then reference this and other relevant issues.

Scott Petrovic commented

2014-02-08 16:58:07 +01:00

@BC369 I think a lot of people also agree with the end goal of moving all headers consistently to the top, but the info area needs to be modified before something like that can happen. Your mockup completely removes the info space which contains file, window, help, etc. Having two menus right on top of each other needs to be addressed first. There is already a lot of discussion about ways to update the info space that is going on here

https://developer.blender.org/T37418

and

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Tab-Interface#UI_Proposal:_Tabbed_Interface_for_Screen_Layouts_and_Toolbar

@BC369 I think a lot of people also agree with the end goal of moving all headers consistently to the top, but the info area needs to be modified before something like that can happen. Your mockup completely removes the info space which contains file, window, help, etc. Having two menus right on top of each other needs to be addressed first. There is already a lot of discussion about ways to update the info space that is going on here https://developer.blender.org/T37418 and http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Proposals/UI/Tab-Interface#UI_Proposal:_Tabbed_Interface_for_Screen_Layouts_and_Toolbar

Bryce C commented

2014-02-08 17:35:50 +01:00

The info space is not actually missing I just moved it to the bottom of the layout in the mock-up. Nevertheless, thanks for the links I'll check them out!

Paweł Łyczkowski commented

2014-02-10 18:28:20 +01:00

Added subscriber: @PawelLyczkowski-1

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-10 20:10:37 +01:00

2c, If these panels were to be merged, I would prefer the tools be moved to the NKey panel,

They could be icons (5 icons fit easily there)

  ([paint][erase][line][poly]), [ruler]     <--- icons
  ([x] Sketch Session)                      <--- checkbox toggle

The whole panel can be moved into the NKey region and only take up 2 rows.

However its still breaking the tools vs settings separation, and if we want to add 5+ more grease pencil tools, likely we'd want to revert the change (since it doesn't scale up well) - basically packing buttons like we used to do with 2.4x

So I wouldn't really recommend this change, just prefer it compared to moving grease pencil layers into the toolbar.

2c, If these panels were to be merged, I would prefer the tools be moved to the NKey panel, They could be icons (5 icons fit easily there) ``` ([paint][erase][line][poly]), [ruler] <--- icons ([x] Sketch Session) <--- checkbox toggle ``` The whole panel can be moved into the NKey region and only take up 2 rows. However its still breaking the tools vs settings separation, and if we want to add 5+ more grease pencil tools, likely we'd want to revert the change (since it doesn't scale up well) - basically packing buttons like we used to do with 2.4x So I wouldn't really recommend this change, just prefer it compared to moving grease pencil layers into the toolbar.

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-03-01 21:28:34 +01:00

Added subscriber: @mont29

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-03-01 21:28:34 +01:00

I’ll follow campbell here, imho it’s not a good practice to merge properties and tools… That kind of rules should only be broken for really good reasons, I don’t think we should do it in this case.

Jonathan Williamson commented

2014-03-02 02:39:36 +01:00

Even though I suggested the original change, and am still for it, I completely agree with both of you, @mont29, @campbellbarton. It is bad to merge properties and tools in most cases.

But regardless, the current scenario is not very good and I'd like to work on improving how tools and their associated properties are generally grouped in Blender. I'll keep thinking on this and work to come up with a more complete proposal that addresses more of the underlying issues rather than just the current Grease Pencil.

Even though I suggested the original change, and am still for it, I completely agree with both of you, @mont29, @campbellbarton. It is bad to merge properties and tools in most cases. But regardless, the current scenario is not very good and I'd like to work on improving how tools and their associated properties are generally grouped in Blender. I'll keep thinking on this and work to come up with a more complete proposal that addresses more of the underlying issues rather than just the current Grease Pencil.

Bartosz Moniewski commented

2014-03-26 10:13:16 +01:00

Added subscriber: @BartekMoniewski

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-12-23 14:35:29 +01:00

Added subscribers: @Blendify, @JulianEisel

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-12-23 14:37:55 +01:00

Shouldn’t it be the time to close that one? Look like we more or less all agree on not making special case for gpencil here, and we already have way too much UI design tasks open imho. ;)

Aaron Carlisle commented

2014-12-25 19:14:40 +01:00

What about in the video sequencer we only have the properties tab so it should make sense that for the settings to be under one tab

Campbell Barton commented

2014-12-26 03:38:55 +01:00

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Campbell Barton closed this issue

2014-12-26 03:38:55 +01:00

Campbell Barton self-assigned this 2014-12-26 03:38:55 +01:00

Campbell Barton commented

2014-12-26 03:38:55 +01:00

Closing.

@Blendify, video sequencer is out-of-scope for this design task. would rather resolve sequencer UI issues separetely.

Closing. @Blendify, video sequencer is out-of-scope for this design task. would rather resolve sequencer UI issues separetely.

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Move all Grease Pencil Settings to the Toolbar Tab #38540

Current Situation

Proposed Improvement

Advantages

Can easily be made consistent across all editors without affects existing layouts and organization. Simply add the Grease Pencil tab to each applicable editor.

Disadvantages

Development Tasks