NDoF functionality Review #38705

New Issue

Inês Almeida · 2014-02-18T18:11:36+01:00

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-18 18:11:36 +01:00

I have tested about everything I could think of, and this is my feedback.

3D View

I think trackball should be the default for ndof, it is a personal preference, but also the way roll left/right 'works' immediately
Turntable/Trackball tooltip is not very descriptive
Helicopter mode makes no sense to me. I am not saying it is wrong or useless, just that I can't understand if it is doing the right thing.
Fly mode is different with 'Walk' or 'Fly' in the user preferences selected (the cursor is different and it feels different). With 'Walk' selected, fly mode jumps a lot if I also am using the mouse.

Node Editor, Logic Editor, Image, Dope Sheet, NLA Editor, Graph Editor, VSE, Movie Clip Editor

When moving everything hobbles a bit, like a summer haze. This could lead to an headache and eye strain. Slow moving also has various kinds of visual glitches.

What it is currently doing:
moving the ndof:
left/rigtht - goes left right
up/down- nothing?? I can't understand if it pans, because it is always also zooming.
forward/back - zooms in and out
Rolling in the 3 axes does, of course, nothing.

I would expect to:
moving the ndof:
left/rigtht - goes left right
up/down- pans up and down
forward/back - zooms in and out

After 10 minutes getting used to this, up/down definitely pans. Maybe some kind of sensitivity adjustment is in order to better distinguish up from forward movement? Or maybe I am really bad at using this thingy :-P
I find myself pitching to zoom in, sometimes. The Image editor has me trying to 'rotate', just because :-P

I tried swap Y/Z, to match what I expected, but now I feel like forward/back that pans up/down is reversed. I can, of course, reverse Y axis to have it as I want it, but it could be a bug.

Invert Zoom is redundant with invert Z axis (with non of the other reverts active)? And is revert Z axis working at all?

Holding ctrl and shift does nothing in these views.

In short:

Should forward/back pan up/down and up/down zoom in and out? (reverse of actual settings) This makes more sense, but it can be just to me.
Revert Z axis does nothing? If so, it should be removed from the options
With option swap Y/Z, is Y axis aka moving forward/backward aka pan up/down wrongly reversed?
Orbit sensitivity option makes sense here?

So I find myself with 'swap Y/Z' and 'reverse Y', now I go back to 3D view and.. I get really sad :-/ Can't we save different settings for 3D view and for Nodes/Images and everywhere we are navigating in 2D? There is also the 1D timeline

Other views, with scrolling

I am using this with reversed Z/Y and reversed Y, it really doesn't do sense to me to scroll by pulling up and down. As in these views there is no concept of 'zoom', maybe both forward/back and up/down could pan up/down?
For the window types where only scrolling is available, the menu should only have the options for sensitivity and to revert scroll direction.

Info Window, Python Console
scrolls up/down with forward/back

Outliner
scrolls up/down with forward/back
scrolls left/right

File Browser
scrolls left/right

does not scroll up/down the in panel on the left (recent places etc)

User Preferences, Properties, Text Editor, 'n' and 't' panel in 3D View, game properties panel in logic editor, panel in movie clip editor (every panel?)

does not scroll up/down

After discovering that the ndof also scrolls, I am automatically using it everywhere (except where it doesn't work).

Timeline
This one is not like any of the others. It scrolls/pans left/right, but it also zooms in and out.

Panning any window type header, works.

'Home/Fit' key
Seems to work everywhere except:

Timeline, Logic Editor (pressing the keyboard's home key works)
Text Editor, Properties, Outliner, User Preferences, Info, File Browser, Python console (I don't think it makes sense here, so all good)

I have tested about everything I could think of, and this is my feedback. **3D View** - I think trackball should be the default for ndof, it is a personal preference, but also the way roll left/right 'works' immediately - Turntable/Trackball tooltip is not very descriptive - Helicopter mode makes no sense to me. I am not saying it is wrong or useless, just that I can't understand if it is doing the right thing. - Fly mode is different with 'Walk' or 'Fly' in the user preferences selected (the cursor is different and it feels different). With 'Walk' selected, fly mode jumps a lot if I also am using the mouse. **Node Editor, Logic Editor, Image, Dope Sheet, NLA Editor, Graph Editor, VSE, Movie Clip Editor** - When moving everything hobbles a bit, like a summer haze. This could lead to an headache and eye strain. Slow moving also has various kinds of visual glitches. What it is currently doing: moving the ndof: left/rigtht - goes left right up/down- nothing?? I can't understand if it pans, because it is always also zooming. forward/back - zooms in and out Rolling in the 3 axes does, of course, nothing. I would expect to: moving the ndof: left/rigtht - goes left right up/down- pans up and down forward/back - zooms in and out After 10 minutes getting used to this, up/down definitely pans. Maybe some kind of sensitivity adjustment is in order to better distinguish up from forward movement? Or maybe I am really bad at using this thingy :-P I find myself pitching to zoom in, sometimes. The Image editor has me trying to 'rotate', just because :-P I tried swap Y/Z, to match what I expected, but now I feel like forward/back that pans up/down is reversed. I can, of course, reverse Y axis to have it as I want it, but it could be a bug. Invert Zoom is redundant with invert Z axis (with non of the other reverts active)? And is revert Z axis working at all? Holding ctrl and shift does nothing in these views. In short: - Should forward/back pan up/down and up/down zoom in and out? (reverse of actual settings) This makes more sense, but it can be just to me. - Revert Z axis does nothing? If so, it should be removed from the options - With option swap Y/Z, is Y axis aka moving forward/backward aka pan up/down wrongly reversed? - Orbit sensitivity option makes sense here? So I find myself with 'swap Y/Z' and 'reverse Y', now I go back to 3D view and.. I get really sad :-/ Can't we save different settings for 3D view and for Nodes/Images and everywhere we are navigating in 2D? There is also the 1D timeline **Other views, with scrolling** - I am using this with reversed Z/Y and reversed Y, it really doesn't do sense to me to scroll by pulling up and down. As in these views there is no concept of 'zoom', maybe both forward/back and up/down could pan up/down? - For the window types where only scrolling is available, the menu should only have the options for sensitivity and to revert scroll direction. **Info Window, Python Console** scrolls up/down with forward/back **Outliner** scrolls up/down with forward/back scrolls left/right **File Browser** scrolls left/right - > does not scroll up/down the in panel on the left (recent places etc) **User Preferences, Properties, Text Editor, 'n' and 't' panel in 3D View, game properties panel in logic editor, panel in movie clip editor (every panel?)** - > does not scroll up/down After discovering that the ndof also scrolls, I am automatically using it everywhere (except where it doesn't work). **Timeline** This one is not like any of the others. It scrolls/pans left/right, but it also zooms in and out. **Panning any window type header, works.** **'Home/Fit' key** Seems to work everywhere except: - Timeline, Logic Editor (pressing the keyboard's home key works) - Text Editor, Properties, Outliner, User Preferences, Info, File Browser, Python console (I don't think it makes sense here, so all good)

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-18 18:11:36 +01:00

Changed status to: 'Open'

Campbell Barton was assigned by Inês Almeida

2014-02-18 18:11:36 +01:00

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-18 18:11:36 +01:00

Added subscriber: @brita

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-20 04:55:28 +01:00

Went over your comments,

3dview

trackball is default again
helecopter mode has been fixed
tooltips I left as is... can improve any time.
fly mode cursor defines dead zone for view rotation. walk mode defines teleport location

2d views
... I see you had some issues with this, personally everything works fine, so, not sure what to do.

Invert Z and invert Zoom are applied in different places. possibly you mainly tested one place.
Y/Z swap needs up/down inverted for me too, but Im leaving this as is, so at least its logical, (its doing what it says its doing, up to user to invert the axis...).
Removed orbit sensitivity from all but the 3D view.
Logic editor worked for me, panning XY and zooming. but its min-max limits make it a bit strange.
re: "the menu should only have the options for sensitivity and to revert scroll direction." -- probably, I see the file selector and logic editor as a corner case that just happen to work (They are generic 2D views), Im not especially interested to tweak the menu for these cases though since with axis swapping, exactly which items to show isnt totally simple.

File Browser
The panel on the left is a toolbar, these dont scroll from ndof intentionally.

Panning any window type header, works.
That should probably be disabled.

'Home/Fit' key
Made it so the timeline works now. other window types dont impliment this for the home key either.

Went over your comments, **3dview** - trackball is default again - helecopter mode has been fixed - tooltips I left as is... can improve any time. - fly mode cursor defines `dead zone` for view rotation. walk mode defines teleport location **2d views** ... I see you had some issues with this, personally everything works fine, so, not sure what to do. - Invert Z and invert Zoom are applied in different places. possibly you mainly tested one place. - Y/Z swap needs up/down inverted for me too, but Im leaving this as is, so at least its logical, (its doing what it says its doing, up to user to invert the axis...). - Removed orbit sensitivity from all but the 3D view. - Logic editor worked for me, panning XY and zooming. but its min-max limits make it a bit strange. - re: "the menu should only have the options for sensitivity and to revert scroll direction." -- probably, I see the file selector and logic editor as a corner case that just happen to work (They are generic 2D views), Im not especially interested to tweak the menu for these cases though since with axis swapping, exactly which items to show isnt totally simple. **File Browser** The panel on the left is a toolbar, these dont scroll from ndof intentionally. **Panning any window type header, works.** That should probably be disabled. **'Home/Fit' key** Made it so the timeline works now. other window types dont impliment this for the home key either.

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-20 05:00:00 +01:00

General reply

Thanks for the comprehensive review of NDOF,

Think I'll finish up NDOF work today, unless there are bugs I can redo.
While its good to get details ironed out, I think Im reaching a point of diminishing returns - and spending time on corner-case issues would be better spent on bugfixing for 2.70 release.

I've committed the [Free|Orbit] toggle as discussed on IRC.

ea58918171

So if there is some obvious error/bug, of course that should be fixed, but further work can be postponed until after 2.70.

Unless you had issues to expand on, Id close this ticket

*General reply* Thanks for the comprehensive review of NDOF, Think I'll finish up NDOF work today, unless there are bugs I can redo. While its good to get details ironed out, I think Im reaching a point of diminishing returns - and spending time on corner-case issues would be better spent on bugfixing for 2.70 release. I've committed the [Free|Orbit] toggle as discussed on IRC. ea58918171 So if there is some obvious error/bug, of course that should be fixed, but further work can be postponed until after 2.70. ---- *Unless you had issues to expand on, Id close this ticket*

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-20 13:43:56 +01:00

3D View
ok
I have (very quickly) tried the 'free' mode and I like it a lot. I find the 'orbit' mode somewhat funny, but that is surely because I had no time to 'think' with it how I am supposed to and to get used to it. I see that it does not pan without shift, but is it less sensitive too?
Anyway, nitpicking here, it's great already, the defaults are good, I agree that any further things can be postponed and will also benefit from feedback from users.
I had no time to test quad view yet.

2D Views

"Invert Z and invert Zoom are applied in different places. possibly you mainly tested one place." I tested a lot of places, not sure what you mean
"Y/Z swap needs up/down inverted for me too, but Im leaving this as is, so at least its logical, (its doing what it says its doing, up to user to invert the axis...)." The thing is, if we swap this here, it'll also be swapped in the 3D view and it is very probable we don't want that. If everyone is like us, invert the default. Not leave 'invert' on by default, I mean the normal way is the reverse from now. If we can't assume everyone is like us, then we need to provide a different setting for 3D view and the others (2D, 1D, scrolls)
"re: "the menu should only have the options for sensitivity and to revert scroll direction." -- probably, I see the file selector and logic editor as a corner case that just happen to work (They are generic 2D views), Im not especially interested to tweak the menu for these cases though since with axis swapping, exactly which items to show isnt totally simple." - This can be tought of later

1D Views
Timeline - all good

Scrolls
"The panel on the left is a toolbar, these dont scroll from ndof intentionally."
Why not? If everything else scrolls.. and I do like the scrolling :-)
This is a bit inconsistent now:

this is scrolling: Info Window, Python Console, Outliner, File Browser
this is not: User Preferences, Properties, Text Editor, panels

Panning any window type header, works.
That should probably be disabled. -> I like this :-) but I won't cry if you decide to take it out

'Home/Fit' key
Made it so the timeline works now. -> ok
other window types dont implement this for the home key either -> Logic Editor does, and pressing 'Home' key works
I tried to review this to help in D334 , but I have no more time for it:

logic editor, ok
the other 2, I don't know as a user what this is, I didn't test
in Dopesheet Editor, modes 'Shape Key Editor' and 'Action Editor' do not have Fit working or the regular home key and probably should. I couldn't find the keymaps in the code in useful time

**3D View** ok I have (very quickly) tried the 'free' mode and I like it a lot. I find the 'orbit' mode somewhat funny, but that is surely because I had no time to 'think' with it how I am supposed to and to get used to it. I see that it does not pan without shift, but is it less sensitive too? Anyway, nitpicking here, it's great already, the defaults are good, I agree that any further things can be postponed and will also benefit from feedback from users. I had no time to test quad view yet. **2D Views** - "Invert Z and invert Zoom are applied in different places. possibly you mainly tested one place." I tested a lot of places, not sure what you mean - "Y/Z swap needs up/down inverted for me too, but Im leaving this as is, so at least its logical, (its doing what it says its doing, up to user to invert the axis...)." The thing is, if we swap this here, it'll also be swapped in the 3D view and it is very probable we don't want that. If everyone is like us, invert the default. Not leave 'invert' on by default, I mean the normal way is the reverse from now. If we can't assume everyone is like us, then we need to provide a different setting for 3D view and the others (2D, 1D, scrolls) - "re: "the menu should only have the options for sensitivity and to revert scroll direction." -- probably, I see the file selector and logic editor as a corner case that just happen to work (They are generic 2D views), Im not especially interested to tweak the menu for these cases though since with axis swapping, exactly which items to show isnt totally simple." - This can be tought of later **1D Views** Timeline - all good **Scrolls** "The panel on the left is a toolbar, these dont scroll from ndof intentionally." Why not? If everything else scrolls.. and I do like the scrolling :-) This is a bit inconsistent now: - this is scrolling: Info Window, Python Console, Outliner, File Browser - this is not: User Preferences, Properties, Text Editor, panels **Panning any window type header, works.** That should probably be disabled. -> I like this :-) but I won't cry if you decide to take it out **'Home/Fit' key** Made it so the timeline works now. -> ok other window types dont implement this for the home key either -> Logic Editor does, and pressing 'Home' key works I tried to review this to help in [D334](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D334) , but I have no more time for it: - logic editor, ok - the other 2, I don't know as a user what this is, I didn't test - in Dopesheet Editor, modes 'Shape Key Editor' and 'Action Editor' do not have Fit working *or the regular home key* and probably should. I couldn't find the keymaps in the code in useful time

Thomas Dinges commented

2014-02-21 01:12:56 +01:00

Added subscriber: @ThomasDinges

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-27 14:01:53 +01:00

Test #393485 :-P
rev 7808360

3D View

all the problems with ortho/persp and speed (it was very slow in some cases, before) are gone :-)
I also tested quad view this time. I have never actually used it so I can't really say if it is improved or not:

Quad View

front/right/top ortho views do what it says in the wiki: pan and zoom and don't rotate. However pan up/down and zoom is once again switched for me. Pressing the ndof forward, zooms in instead of panning up. Y/Z swap axis once again solve this and once again pressing forward goes pans down instead of up so I also have to invert Y too. I really think the default behaviour should be changed here and all this invert options for '2D windows' separated from normal 3D view
the 4th view is user persp and not camera view - wiki outdated? ndof works normally here, but is it more sensitive/speedy?
when I leave quad view with ctrl+alt+q it goes into Top Ortho and I can not rotate here. It is not very easy to leave this view: numpad 1/3/7 all go to not rotatable ortho views, 5 goes into non rotatable perspective views. I have to press 8/6/4/2 to tilt the view so I can have freedom again. Attempting to go into camera view doesn't save me either :-P Can this save and reload the point of view and perspective that were before entering quad view? or leave into the user persp instead?

2D Views
again, I think defaults should be changed and options saved separately from the 3D view. Personally I'd be happy if I only had the defaults as I like, I feel they are reversed from what I use in the 3D view. I am not sure that for people who work with reversed they are reversed for everything. Maybe changing the defaults for 2Dviews to better match 3Dviews and then reversing axis by choice would work for everyone?

Other

Scrolls are still inconsistent
Home/Fit key in action and shape keys editor is still not working

**Test #393485** :-P rev 7808360 **3D View** - all the problems with ortho/persp and speed (it was very slow in some cases, before) are gone :-) - I also tested quad view this time. I have never actually used it so I can't really say if it is improved or not: **Quad View** - front/right/top ortho views do what it says in the wiki: pan and zoom and don't rotate. However pan up/down and zoom is once again switched for me. Pressing the ndof forward, zooms in instead of panning up. Y/Z swap axis once again solve this and once again pressing forward goes pans down instead of up so I also have to invert Y too. I really think the default behaviour should be changed here and all this invert options for '2D windows' separated from normal 3D view - the 4th view is user persp and not camera view - [wiki outdated](http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.6/Manual/3D_interaction/Navigating/3D_View#Quad_View)? ndof works normally here, but is it more sensitive/speedy? - when I leave quad view with ctrl+alt+q it goes into Top Ortho and I can not rotate here. It is not very easy to leave this view: numpad 1/3/7 all go to not rotatable ortho views, 5 goes into non rotatable perspective views. I have to press 8/6/4/2 to tilt the view so I can have freedom again. Attempting to go into camera view doesn't save me either :-P Can this save and reload the point of view and perspective that were before entering quad view? or leave into the user persp instead? **2D Views** again, I think defaults should be changed and options saved separately from the 3D view. Personally I'd be happy if I only had the defaults as I like, I feel they are reversed from what I use in the 3D view. I am not sure that for people who work with reversed they are reversed for everything. Maybe changing the defaults for 2Dviews to better match 3Dviews and then reversing axis by choice would work for everyone? **Other** - Scrolls are still inconsistent - Home/Fit key in action and shape keys editor is still not working

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-27 14:29:22 +01:00

Re: Quad View,

Re axis inverting, the problem is that there isnt a notion of a 2d and a 3d view really - forward is Dolly or Zoom, and it 2D its just zoom, for my setup swapping y/z makes sense to invert (and yours it seems), but I rather not make this decision for the user, the option to invert an axis is simple to do, so if they begin to mess with this, they can take the time to tweak the extra axis.
... Or, we could make this default behavior so pushing down is dolly/zoom by default (swap x/y and invert y by default), this works nice in 2D and 3D views IMHO... but its also just my preference, and I don't want to set blender up with options that just fit the spacemouse.
Updated wiki
The quad-view exits to the view your mouse is over. but you raise a good point about axis/ortho being hard to exit, the problem with allowing NDOF to rotate out of an axis view is its so easy to do by accident, so for now I cant really think fo a good wat around this. (my ndof device has a rotate button but thats device specific).

Re: 2d view, not sure how this is reversed. We could have 2d views be configured differently though i think we already have too many ndof options :S, perhaps not include all in the menu.

Re: Other

Scrolls - User Preferences, Properties, Text Editor, panels --- this is intentional, I wouldnt really worry to support them.
Ill look into home-fit key for action editor.

Re: Quad View, - Re axis inverting, the problem is that there isnt a notion of a 2d and a 3d view really - forward is Dolly or Zoom, and it 2D its just zoom, for my setup swapping y/z makes sense to invert (and yours it seems), but I rather not make this decision for the user, the option to invert an axis is simple to do, so if they begin to mess with this, they can take the time to tweak the extra axis. ... Or, we could make this default behavior so pushing down is dolly/zoom by default (swap x/y and invert y by default), this works nice in 2D and 3D views IMHO... but its also just my preference, and I don't want to set blender up with options that just fit the spacemouse. - Updated wiki - The quad-view exits to the view your mouse is over. but you raise a good point about axis/ortho being hard to exit, the problem with allowing NDOF to rotate out of an axis view is its so easy to do by accident, so for now I cant really think fo a good wat around this. (my ndof device has a rotate button but thats device specific). Re: 2d view, not sure how this is reversed. We could have 2d views be configured differently though i think we already have too many ndof options :S, perhaps not include all in the menu. Re: Other - Scrolls - *User Preferences, Properties, Text Editor, panels* --- this is intentional, I wouldnt really worry to support them. - Ill look into home-fit key for action editor.

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-27 15:42:00 +01:00

More ndof options is not a problem for non ndof users, they don't even see them if the options appear only with the ndof menu button.

My problem is that to have the ndof working in a way that I can use it in 2Dviews I am unable to use it in 3Dview and vice versa. Constantly changing the settings every time I switch window is even worse. If changing the defaults will affect everything, I prefer to have this as is. It is perfect for 3d view, that is more important than the other views.

Have you locked front/right/top to not rotate? :-( I thought it was just for quad view, I don't like it at all :-( I am always like "walking around... front. rotate around... top! rotate down to front .." meaning, I use the ortho views as anchors and I am in and out of them all the time. This feels really constrained now.

Scrolls: I like the ones that are working, I can look into it if you just don't have the time. If you really don't want support for this, I'll find something else.

More ndof options is not a problem for non ndof users, they don't even see them if the options appear only with the ndof menu button. My problem is that to have the ndof working in a way that I can use it in 2Dviews I am unable to use it in 3Dview and vice versa. Constantly changing the settings every time I switch window is even worse. If changing the defaults will affect everything, I prefer to have this as is. It is perfect for 3d view, that is more important than the other views. Have you locked front/right/top to not rotate? :-( I thought it was just for quad view, I don't like it at all :-( I am always like "walking around... front. rotate around... top! rotate down to front .." meaning, I use the ortho views as anchors and I am in and out of them all the time. This feels really constrained now. Scrolls: I like the ones that are working, I can look into it if you just don't have the time. If you really don't want support for this, I'll find something else.

Campbell Barton commented

2014-02-28 16:14:14 +01:00

Made some more minor changes

In perspective mode, setting axis-views no longer locks rotation UNLESS they are also in ortho mode. This conflicts a bit with Auto-Perspective since that will put you into ortho mode every time.
swap YZ now negates Y axis so you dont have to set invert.

I tested the action & shape key view, and FIT works for me (I can't redo the bug)

Made some more minor changes - In perspective mode, setting axis-views no longer locks rotation UNLESS they are also in ortho mode. This conflicts a bit with Auto-Perspective since that will put you into ortho mode every time. - swap YZ now negates Y axis so you dont have to set invert. I tested the action & shape key view, and FIT works for me (I can't redo the bug)

Inês Almeida commented

2014-02-28 19:42:34 +01:00

"swap YZ now negates Y axis so you dont have to set invert." - I think it is better now :-)
"In perspective mode ..no longer locks rotation UNLESS they are also in ortho mode..." - better now, but yes, it does conflict with auto-perspective and with using ortho all the time (I do). Maybe one more setting? 'Lock rotation in axis views'. This is somewhat important :-/
"I tested the action & shape key view, and FIT works for me (I can't redo the bug)" - I looked better into this. I was testing with empty data and actedit_get_context returns true for Dopesheet, Grease Pencil and Mask because they do ac->data = &saction->ads, but false for Action ac->data = saction->action and ShapeKey ac->data = actedit_get_shapekeys(ac).
new thing: there is a wireless SpaceNavigator now, it should be added (the functionality is the same as a regular SpaceNavigator), but I have no idea how to know its product id.

- "swap YZ now negates Y axis so you dont have to set invert." - I think it is better now :-) - "In perspective mode ..no longer locks rotation UNLESS they are also in ortho mode..." - better now, but yes, it does conflict with auto-perspective and with using ortho all the time (I do). Maybe one more setting? 'Lock rotation in axis views'. This is somewhat important :-/ - "I tested the action & shape key view, and FIT works for me (I can't redo the bug)" - I looked better into this. I was testing with empty data and `actedit_get_context` returns true for *Dopesheet*, *Grease Pencil* and *Mask* because they do `ac->data = &saction->ads`, but false for *Action* `ac->data = saction->action` and *ShapeKey* `ac->data = actedit_get_shapekeys(ac)`. - new thing: there is a wireless SpaceNavigator now, it should be added (the functionality is the same as a regular SpaceNavigator), but I have no idea how to know its product id.

Seppo Tukiainen commented

2014-03-23 21:30:08 +01:00

Added subscriber: @raportoi

Seppo Tukiainen commented

2014-03-23 21:30:08 +01:00

I have SpacePilot PRO 3D-mouse, without any extra settings for buttons.
3Dconexion driver is installed. Ver.6.17.6

Mouse settings in blender are as follows:

Orbit style: free and trackball
Orbit options: all are checked
Pan options: all axis and zoom are inverted, and no Y/Z swap.
Fly/Walk: no helicopter, lock horizon checked

These settings works the way I have experienced with other programs (I think that I grab the object in my hand and manipulate it's rotation and position on screen).

The thing I am not pleased is that rotation is not obeying "Rotate around the selection" setting.

With this behavior working is a bit tricky, as a selected object or vertex disappears during rotation if one doesn't pan it simultaneously opposite direction.

Blender version is 2.70, date 2014-03-19, 05:02, Hash: 19e627c
PC: Win7 pro + ATI FirePro V7800

I have SpacePilot PRO 3D-mouse, without any extra settings for buttons. 3Dconexion driver is installed. Ver.6.17.6 Mouse settings in blender are as follows: - Orbit style: free and trackball - Orbit options: all are checked - Pan options: all axis and zoom are inverted, and no Y/Z swap. - Fly/Walk: no helicopter, lock horizon checked These settings works the way I have experienced with other programs (I think that I grab the object in my hand and manipulate it's rotation and position on screen). The thing I am not pleased is that rotation is not obeying "Rotate around the selection" setting. With this behavior working is a bit tricky, as a selected object or vertex disappears during rotation if one doesn't pan it simultaneously opposite direction. Blender version is 2.70, date 2014-03-19, 05:02, Hash: 19e627c PC: Win7 pro + ATI FirePro V7800

Inês Almeida commented

2014-03-23 23:30:17 +01:00

Added subscriber: @ideasman42

Inês Almeida commented

2014-03-23 23:30:17 +01:00

The thing I am not pleased is that rotation is not obeying "Rotate around the selection" setting.

You mean "Rotate around the selection" from User Preferences > Interface ?

If I recall correctly that does not (and should not) affect NDOF at all. @ideasman42 will correct me if I am wrong.
If you want to always be locked to the current selection, try changing Orbit Style from Free to Orbit (around the selection)

@raportoi please answer the following for me, feedback from ndof users is scarce and it is important to have good default settings:
1 - you previously used ndof and now upgraded to v2.70? If so did you change any of the shortcuts for ndof? (like no need to press Shift + ndof to pan, etc)
2 - all your axis are inverted. how do you feel about using the ndof in the 2d views? does it feel reversed or good (with the settings you like in the 3d view)?

@ideasman42 I think this is overall positive feedback for the changes :)

>The thing I am not pleased is that rotation is not obeying "Rotate around the selection" setting. You mean "Rotate around the selection" from *User Preferences > Interface* ? If I recall correctly that does not (and should not) affect NDOF at all. @ideasman42 will correct me if I am wrong. If you want to always be locked to the current selection, try changing *Orbit Style* from *Free* to *Orbit* (around the selection) @raportoi please answer the following for me, feedback from ndof users is scarce and it is important to have good default settings: 1 - you previously used ndof and now upgraded to v2.70? If so did you change any of the shortcuts for ndof? (like no need to press Shift + ndof to pan, etc) 2 - all your axis are inverted. how do you feel about using the ndof in the 2d views? does it feel reversed or good (with the settings you like in the 3d view)? @ideasman42 I think this is overall positive feedback for the changes :)

Campbell Barton commented

2014-03-25 07:26:51 +01:00

Regarding rotate around selection, It can be made to work with Orbit navigation style, (but not Free).

Since these are 2 non-default settings I think its not really high priority, but it is worth getting working still.

@brita & @raportoi

Asside from this issue, from reasing the last few comments, its a bit fuzzy to me which of these I should try to turn into TODO's.

Perhaps if they are bugs - just report them in the tracker and then we'll handle them like any other bugs,
mixing too many issues up can get confusing.

Regarding rotate around selection, It can be made to work with **Orbit** navigation style, (but not **Free**). Since these are 2 non-default settings I think its not really high priority, but it is worth getting working still. @brita & @raportoi Asside from this issue, from reasing the last few comments, its a bit fuzzy to me which of these I should try to turn into TODO's. Perhaps if they are bugs - just report them in the tracker and then we'll handle them like any other bugs, mixing too many issues up can get confusing.

Inês Almeida commented

2014-03-26 10:26:33 +01:00

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Resolved'

Inês Almeida closed this issue

2014-03-26 10:26:33 +01:00

Inês Almeida commented

2014-03-26 10:26:33 +01:00

Support and defaults for NDOF devices seem to be overall good, so this task can be closed.
@raportoi if you have any further feedback/problems please report a new bug so it can be accessed by itself

Support and defaults for NDOF devices seem to be overall good, so this task can be closed. @raportoi if you have any further feedback/problems please report a new bug so it can be accessed by itself

Seppo Tukiainen commented

2014-03-27 09:28:02 +01:00

Just answer to Campbell:
As I mentioned, my style to use ndof is to think that I'm like a outsider looking in to box (scene) through the window (my screen), and using 3D-mouse to manipulate the translation of the scene.
Rotating the scene from that point of view means that objects which are in sight has to stay in sight. So rotating center should be somewhere in the scene (and better to be in known place in sight)
Now it seems that rotation center is user, so whole scene is rotating around him/her! This is not what I can call to be easy to operate!

Answers:

All ndof settings are in default values.
in 2D is working well. No complaining!

Just answer to Campbell: As I mentioned, my style to use ndof is to think that I'm like a outsider looking in to box (scene) through the window (my screen), and using 3D-mouse to manipulate the translation of the scene. Rotating the scene from that point of view means that objects which are in sight has to stay in sight. So rotating center should be somewhere in the scene (and better to be in known place in sight) Now it seems that rotation center is user, so whole scene is rotating around him/her! This is not what I can call to be easy to operate! Answers: 1. All ndof settings are in default values. 2. in 2D is working well. No complaining! ```

Campbell Barton commented

2014-03-28 06:22:20 +01:00

@raportoi

I think I understand your point of view, but as far as I can see this is mostly personal preference.

If you navigate a large scene, you would want Free
If you spin around a model in the view center you would want Orbit

The reason I've selected Free navigation as default is that the mouse already works well to orbit around a model, and is not very good for exploring the scene. Something which NDOF devices are very good at.

So is this simply a matter of your preference? if you set the navigation style to Orbit is it working as you would like?

@raportoi I think I understand your point of view, but as far as I can see this is mostly personal preference. - If you navigate a large scene, you would want **Free** - If you spin around a model in the view center you would want **Orbit** The reason I've selected **Free** navigation as default is that the mouse already works well to orbit around a model, and is not very good for exploring the scene. Something which NDOF devices are very good at. So is this simply a matter of your preference? if you set the navigation style to **Orbit** is it working as you would like?

Seppo Tukiainen commented

2014-03-28 07:34:38 +01:00

@ideasman42
In Orbit mode, simultaneous panning is missing (have to push a button to pan).
Otherwise it seemed to be ok.
I even tried to uncheck 3D-View->Global->NDOF Pan View with no help.

There could be a checkbox for simultaneous panning in ndof Orbit mode settings.

To use Orbit mode with current behavior, one needs two hands. (not the best way to operate)

So in conclusion:

Orbit mode suits for me, if there would be simultaneous panning.
This is a bug or missing feature ?!?

@ideasman42 In Orbit mode, simultaneous panning is missing (have to push a button to pan). Otherwise it seemed to be ok. I even tried to uncheck 3D-View->Global->NDOF Pan View with no help. There could be a checkbox for simultaneous panning in ndof Orbit mode settings. To use Orbit mode with current behavior, one needs two hands. (not the best way to operate) So in conclusion: - Orbit mode suits for me, if there would be simultaneous panning. - This is a bug or missing feature ?!?

peter commented

2019-08-28 06:22:14 +02:00

Added subscriber: @polynut

peter commented

2019-08-28 06:22:14 +02:00

Sorry to resurrect this topic but i spent most of my day trying to figure out how to stop orbit from getting inverted when i go under my model. when i am on top orbit work OK but if i go under the model it is inverted!

I saw a few thread mentioning there is a way to fix it with code but i am no coder and i would like to have the same kind of behavior as in other 3d apps.

Here the coding just to see if it make sense to a programmer :

At the declarations in the viewmove procedure add:

float firstvec- [x], newvec- [x], dvec[3];
float oldquat- [x], q1- [x], si, phi, dist0;
int firsttime=1;
short mvalball- [x], mval- [x], mvalo[2];
int reverse; //<----------------------------add this line and down
reverse=1;
if (G.vd->persmat- [x]- [x] < 0)
reverse*=-1;

Then in the turntable declaration add:

QuatMul(G.vd->viewquat, q1, oldquat);

/* rotate around z-axis (mouse x moves) */

phi= 2*(mval- [x]-mvalball- [x])*reverse; //<-----add the “*reverse”
phi/= (float)curarea->winx;
si= sin(phi);
q1- [x]= cos(phi);
q1- [x]= q1- [x]= 0.0;
q1- [x]= si;

I tried the orbit mode with turntable but you have to use shift to pan so it make using a 3d mouse useless.

Many people like me who recently switch from 3ds max or maya would really appreciate to be able to use their 3d mouse correctly specially when you suffer from RSI.

Thank for anyone who can help on this issue.

Sorry to resurrect this topic but i spent most of my day trying to figure out how to stop orbit from getting inverted when i go under my model. when i am on top orbit work OK but if i go under the model it is inverted! I saw a few thread mentioning there is a way to fix it with code but i am no coder and i would like to have the same kind of behavior as in other 3d apps. Here the coding just to see if it make sense to a programmer : At the declarations in the viewmove procedure add: float firstvec- [x], newvec- [x], dvec[3]; float oldquat- [x], q1- [x], si, phi, dist0; int firsttime=1; short mvalball- [x], mval- [x], mvalo[2]; int reverse; //<----------------------------add this line and down reverse=1; if (G.vd->persmat- [x]- [x] < 0) reverse*=-1; Then in the turntable declaration add: QuatMul(G.vd->viewquat, q1, oldquat); /* rotate around z-axis (mouse x moves) */ phi= 2*(mval- [x]-mvalball- [x])*reverse; //<-----add the “*reverse” phi/= (float)curarea->winx; si= sin(phi); q1- [x]= cos(phi); q1- [x]= q1- [x]= 0.0; q1- [x]= si; I tried the orbit mode with turntable but you have to use shift to pan so it make using a 3d mouse useless. Many people like me who recently switch from 3ds max or maya would really appreciate to be able to use their 3d mouse correctly specially when you suffer from RSI. Thank for anyone who can help on this issue.

Seppo Tukiainen commented

2019-08-28 08:32:29 +02:00

There can be solution for all:

make new selection in 3d mouse settings: with which simultanious panning can be activated
By this way everybody can be happy!

There can be solution for all: - make new selection in 3d mouse settings: with which simultanious panning can be activated By this way everybody can be happy!

Markus Bawidamann commented

2020-09-27 11:07:48 +02:00

Added subscriber: @MarkusBawidamann-4

Markus Bawidamann commented

2020-09-27 11:07:48 +02:00

Did you guys change something in NDOF in 2.8x and 2.9? I have used it with a 3d navigator for many years and it always did exactly what I expected it to do. Now? Completely nonsense and I have to figure out the settings how to configure it that it reverts back to the normal movement state like before. What is the logic behind it? This feels like reversing the steering wheel in a car and exchanging the brake and accelerator pedals to do the exact opposite.

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