Backface culling and selection buffer consistency #71156

New Issue

Simeon Conzendorf · 2019-10-28T11:38:15+01:00

Simeon Conzendorf commented

2019-10-28 11:38:15 +01:00

System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.18362 64 Bits
Graphics card: GeForce GT 750M/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 376.54

Blender Version
Broken: version: 2.81 (sub 15), branch: master, commit date: 2019-10-21 18:07, hash: 388c954cb5

Short description of error
Backface culling and the selection of objects in Blender is not consistent causing unnecessary confusion.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

the backface culling checkbox in solid view has also influence on the selection buffer in material preview mode (while still showing the backfaces)
material preview has no backface culling checkbox (should have it's own setting)
if you use the backface culling checkbox per object (which is important to have) in viewport material settings it has no influence on the selection buffer in material preview mode, which it should

for example:

create a cube, invert normals, enable backface culling in viewport material settings
create a smaller cube inside
selection in material preview mode doesn't work as expected

you can change to solid view, enable backface culling, change back to material preview and the selection works as expected - but it should work without this step.

here's an example with two cubes with inverted normals and the right one has the per object backface culling setting
backface_culling.blend

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.18362 64 Bits Graphics card: GeForce GT 750M/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 376.54 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 2.81 (sub 15), branch: master, commit date: 2019-10-21 18:07, hash: `388c954cb5` **Short description of error** Backface culling and the selection of objects in Blender is not consistent causing unnecessary confusion. **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** - the backface culling checkbox in solid view has also influence on the selection buffer in material preview mode (while still showing the backfaces) - material preview has no backface culling checkbox (should have it's own setting) - if you use the backface culling checkbox per object (which is important to have) in viewport material settings it has no influence on the selection buffer in material preview mode, which it should for example: - create a cube, invert normals, enable backface culling in viewport material settings - create a smaller cube inside - > selection in material preview mode doesn't work as expected you can change to solid view, enable backface culling, change back to material preview and the selection works as expected - but it should work without this step. here's an example with two cubes with inverted normals and the right one has the per object backface culling setting [backface_culling.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F7864947/backface_culling.blend)

Simeon Conzendorf commented

2019-10-28 11:38:15 +01:00

Added subscriber: @SimeonConzendorf

Germano Cavalcante commented

2019-10-28 15:52:19 +01:00

Added subscriber: @mano-wii

Germano Cavalcante commented

2019-10-28 15:52:19 +01:00

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Germano Cavalcante closed this issue

2019-10-28 15:52:19 +01:00

Germano Cavalcante self-assigned this 2019-10-28 15:52:19 +01:00

Germano Cavalcante commented

2019-10-28 15:52:19 +01:00

backface_culling is a property specific to Eevee materials.
The selection uses a basic builtin engine that considers only the surfaces and edges of objects.
If we consider the materials of an engine, objects with invisible material in Cycles should not be selected either, just an example.

backface culling could be a general property, but that would be a feature request and is not scope of the Bug Tracker.

`backface_culling` is a property specific to Eevee materials. The selection uses a basic builtin engine that considers only the surfaces and edges of objects. If we consider the materials of an engine, objects with invisible material in Cycles should not be selected either, just an example. `backface culling` could be a general property, but that would be a feature request and is not scope of the Bug Tracker.

Germano Cavalcante was unassigned by Simeon Conzendorf

2019-10-28 17:43:57 +01:00

Simeon Conzendorf commented

2019-10-28 17:43:57 +01:00

I'm not sure if you carefully read my description.

having a checkbox in solid view that has influence on material preview mode is a bug
ignoring backfaces in selection buffer in solid view a common behavior - not working in material preview mode if using backface culling is a bug
things not working in 2.8, but in 2.7 is a regression

I'd conversations with other game developers and architects and yeeees: they are not happy with selection in 2.8 in combination with backface culling.

Filling out bug request about buggy workflows, which worked in 2.7x - but hearing that I should write a feature request is annoying. Especially this is not the first time in times with way more developers than ever before.

I'm not sure if you carefully read my description. - having a checkbox in solid view that has influence on material preview mode **is a bug** - ignoring backfaces in selection buffer in solid view a common behavior - not working in material preview mode if using backface culling **is a bug** - things not working in 2.8, but in 2.7 **is a regression** I'd conversations with other game developers and architects and yeeees: they are not happy with selection in 2.8 in combination with backface culling. Filling out bug request about buggy workflows, which worked in 2.7x - but hearing that I should write a feature request is annoying. Especially this is not the first time in times with way more developers than ever before.

Germano Cavalcante commented

2019-10-28 18:15:50 +01:00

@SimeonConzendorf, could you be more specific?
Is the idea always to disable backface culling for object selection outside solid mode?

In fact I found two backface culling options...
The first can be seen in the Viewport Shading popover and affects workbench and selection.
The other is a property of Eevee material (in material settings).

One affects all objects in the viewport and the other affects only the material of the object.

@SimeonConzendorf, could you be more specific? Is the idea always to disable `backface culling` for object selection outside solid mode? In fact I found two `backface culling` options... The first can be seen in the `Viewport Shading` popover and affects workbench and selection. The other is a property of Eevee material (in material settings). One affects all objects in the viewport and the other affects only the material of the object.

Simeon Conzendorf commented

2019-10-28 19:49:25 +01:00

Added subscriber: @JulianEisel

Simeon Conzendorf commented

2019-10-28 19:49:25 +01:00

HELP @JulianEisel (sorry to mention you again)

As I said at bcon this is not easy to describe and assigning is nothing I can do.

I described the inconsistent behavior (which should not be) at the very beginning. And maybe to shorten it: user should not be able to select a backface at all if they decide to cull it. This was the case in 2.7. In solid view and material view.

HELP @JulianEisel (sorry to mention you again) As I said at bcon this is not easy to describe and assigning is nothing I can do. I described the inconsistent behavior (which should not be) at the very beginning. And maybe to shorten it: user should not be able to select a backface at all if they decide to cull it. This was the case in 2.7. In solid view and material view.

Sebastian Koenig commented

2019-11-01 17:06:30 +01:00

Added subscriber: @sebastian_k

Simeon Conzendorf commented

2019-11-14 10:03:18 +01:00

Here is's a video, which makes it maybe more clear that 2.7 was working much better in this topic.

backfaces_compare27_vs_28.mp4

Here is's a video, which makes it maybe more clear that 2.7 was working much better in this topic. [backfaces_compare27_vs_28.mp4](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8072237/backfaces_compare27_vs_28.mp4)

Sebastian Koenig commented

2019-11-14 12:42:10 +01:00

To me this definitely looks like a regression...

Germano Cavalcante commented

2019-11-21 14:09:39 +01:00

Changed status from 'Archived' to: 'Open'

Germano Cavalcante reopened this issue

2019-11-21 14:09:39 +01:00

Paul Kotelevets commented

2019-12-28 17:13:22 +01:00

Added subscriber: @1D_Inc

Paul Kotelevets commented

2019-12-28 17:13:22 +01:00

In #71156#810732, @SimeonConzendorf wrote:
Here is's a video, which makes it maybe more clear that 2.7 was working much better in this topic.

About global backfacing switch.
Since it is per-material setup, it is quite flexible solution, so it seems we need to make some script or somtehing for global switch, for example, for interiors obsevation.

But, indeed, this selecting issue brings some troubles to interior design process.

> In #71156#810732, @SimeonConzendorf wrote: > Here is's a video, which makes it maybe more clear that 2.7 was working much better in this topic. About global backfacing switch. Since it is per-material setup, it is quite flexible solution, so it seems we need to make some script or somtehing for global switch, for example, for interiors obsevation. ![изображение.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8248283/изображение.png) ![изображение.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8248292/изображение.png) But, indeed, this selecting issue brings some troubles to interior design process.

Germano Cavalcante commented

2020-01-03 19:46:29 +01:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Archived'

Germano Cavalcante closed this issue

2020-01-03 19:46:29 +01:00

Germano Cavalcante self-assigned this 2020-01-03 19:46:29 +01:00

Germano Cavalcante commented

2020-01-03 19:46:29 +01:00

Revisiting the report, the issue reported here is a request for modified/improved behavior and not a bug in current behavior.

As previously mentioned, this bug tracker is only for bugs and errors.

For user requests and feedback, other channels are more appropriate: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Communication/Contact#User_Feedback_and_Requests

For more information on why this isn't considered a bug, visit: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Not_a_bug

Revisiting the report, the issue reported here is a request for modified/improved behavior and not a bug in current behavior. As previously mentioned, this bug tracker is only for bugs and errors. For user requests and feedback, other channels are more appropriate: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Communication/Contact#User_Feedback_and_Requests For more information on why this isn't considered a bug, visit: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Not_a_bug

Paul Kotelevets commented

2020-01-03 22:39:47 +01:00

In #71156#841871, @mano-wii wrote:
For more information on why this isn't considered a bug, visit: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Not_a_bug

There are 3 types of feedback possible - Bug, Workflow Issue and Proposal.
Here is the difference between them:

Bug is about a nice roadmap feature design but bad realization. Bugs can make software unstable.
Workflow issue is about bad roadmap feature design. Workflow issues can make software unusable.
Proposal is about feature that can make software better. Proposals are about possible software progress.

The problem is that workflow issues can be as deadly as bugs, but most of them are currently defined as proposals.
They are not yet divided into a special category.

> In #71156#841871, @mano-wii wrote: > For more information on why this isn't considered a bug, visit: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Not_a_bug There are 3 types of feedback possible - Bug, Workflow Issue and Proposal. Here is the difference between them: - **Bug** is about a nice roadmap feature design but bad realization. Bugs can make software unstable. - **Workflow issue** is about bad roadmap feature design. Workflow issues can make software unusable. - **Proposal** is about feature that can make software better. Proposals are about possible software progress. The problem is that workflow issues can be as deadly as bugs, but most of them are currently defined as proposals. They are not yet divided into a special category.

ronsn commented

2020-01-05 03:03:42 +01:00

Added subscriber: @ronsn

ronsn commented

2020-01-05 03:03:42 +01:00

@SimeonConzendorf: Is the functionality basically there and you just need a global switch, which changes all individual switches? :)

Paul Kotelevets commented

2020-01-05 17:36:01 +01:00

In #71156#842219, @ronsn wrote:
@SimeonConzendorf: Is the functionality basically there and you just need a global switch, which changes all individual switches? :)

That would be nice to make Alt+LMB on Backface culling checkbox influence all materials, like Blender usually does.

> In #71156#842219, @ronsn wrote: > @SimeonConzendorf: Is the functionality basically there and you just need a global switch, which changes all individual switches? :) That would be nice to make Alt+LMB on Backface culling checkbox influence all materials, like Blender usually does.

ronsn commented

2020-01-07 06:21:54 +01:00

@1D_Inc: Okay, I have to do a little bit more research and do tries before I can say something about this issue. Maybe someone other is faster than me, that's also cool. But until now I must leave you and send you on some journey like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybV7anuZrjU
(sorry, but I love this song^^)

Edit:
Okay, I didn't mean that song! I meant this one by another artist. It's "Into the West" - Lord of the Rings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVaK2NXmJA

God, how embarrassing :D

@1D_Inc: Okay, I have to do a little bit more research and do tries before I can say something about this issue. Maybe someone other is faster than me, that's also cool. But until now I must leave you and send you on some journey like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybV7anuZrjU (sorry, but I love this song^^) **Edit:** Okay, I didn't mean that song! I meant this one by another artist. It's "Into the West" - Lord of the Rings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVaK2NXmJA God, how embarrassing :D

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Backface culling and selection buffer consistency #71156