Blender 2.8: Left Click Select #56702

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opened 2018-09-06 11:28:10 +02:00 by William Reynish · 105 comments

William Reynish commented 2018-09-06 11:28:10 +02:00

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For the longest time, Blender has had an option in the Preferences to use left click select:

This has been a useful option for people who use devices where right-clicking is a hassle, and for users coming from other software which uses left click for selection.

However, this option never worked perfectly. There were situations that never worked, such as the ability to select faces while in Vertex Paint mode. Using Alt-LMB for view manipulation also didn’t work with this option. With Blender 2.8, the situation for the left click select option is much worse, because there’s a conflict between the use of active tools and selection.

If we just naively flip the mouse buttons, so that selection happens with LMB and using tools happens with RMB, users are then still required to to use RMB extensively for common tasks, negating the entire point of the LMB select option altogether. The old way the option worked, doesn’t work in 2.8.

So, at the last UI meeting, we discussed several options:

• Remove Left Click Select
• Keep as-is, even though it doesn’t really work

Change the behaviour, to do both selection and tool use with LMB

We recognise that lots of users use LMB select, so we really do want to keep it. We will try and go with the third option.

Here’s how we might go about handling left click select in Blender 2.8:

• LMB does selection, when the active Select tool is enabled
• If you keep using the Select tool, you can just keep selecting things with LMB and use keyboard shortcuts to perform actions, like normal.
• If you want to use other active tools, you just switch to those in the toolbar. They are also executed with LMB.
• To set the 3D Cursor, users can use the 3D Cursor tool, or use an alternative constant mapping, such as Ctrl-RMB (Ctrl-LMB could also be used here, but on some systems this is already used as an alternative to RMB)
  • Lasso Select then needs a new key. Shift+Ctrl+LMB or RMB?
• We can try and make sure Alt-LMB works for view manipulation when using ‘Emulate 3 Button Mouse’.
• MMB will of course still do view manipulation also
• RMB will open a contextual menu, same as the W-menu.
• W is now free, and we can use W to quickly switch to the select tool.

As you can see, the LMB select option becomes a bigger change. It has to be, to both support selection and tool use with LMB. When using left click select, Blender then becomes nicely internally consistent. Just like you use LMB to select nodes, and right click for contextual menus on buttons and other places, you use those same mouse buttons in the 3D View.

• • To implement this, we could use some sort of keymap override, so we don’t have to maintain two entirely separate keymaps.
• • It might be a good idea to have the select tool be the default tool here, rather than 3D Cursor. Otherwise, users won't immediately be able to select items until they switch to the select tool.

Note: the default for left/right select is outside the scope of this proposal.

For the longest time, Blender has had an option in the Preferences to use left click select:  This has been a useful option for people who use devices where right-clicking is a hassle, and for users coming from other software which uses left click for selection. However, this option never worked perfectly. There were situations that never worked, such as the ability to select faces while in Vertex Paint mode. Using Alt-LMB for view manipulation also didn’t work with this option. With Blender 2.8, the situation for the left click select option is much worse, because there’s a conflict between the use of active tools and selection. If we just naively flip the mouse buttons, so that selection happens with LMB and using tools happens with RMB, users are then still required to to use RMB extensively for common tasks, negating the entire point of the LMB select option altogether. The old way the option worked, doesn’t work in 2.8. So, at the last UI meeting, we discussed several options: - Remove Left Click Select - Keep as-is, even though it doesn’t really work # Change the behaviour, to do both selection and tool use with LMB We recognise that lots of users use LMB select, so we really do want to keep it. We will try and go with the third option. Here’s how we might go about handling left click select in Blender 2.8: * LMB does selection, when the active Select tool is enabled * If you keep using the Select tool, you can just keep selecting things with LMB and use keyboard shortcuts to perform actions, like normal. * If you want to use other active tools, you just switch to those in the toolbar. They are also executed with LMB. * To set the 3D Cursor, users can use the 3D Cursor tool, or use an alternative constant mapping, such as Ctrl-RMB (Ctrl-LMB could also be used here, but on some systems this is already used as an alternative to RMB) * Lasso Select then needs a new key. Shift+Ctrl+LMB or RMB? * We can try and make sure Alt-LMB works for view manipulation when using ‘Emulate 3 Button Mouse’. * MMB will of course still do view manipulation also * RMB will open a contextual menu, same as the W-menu. * W is now free, and we can use W to quickly switch to the select tool. As you can see, the LMB select option becomes a bigger change. It has to be, to both support selection and tool use with LMB. When using left click select, Blender then becomes nicely internally consistent. Just like you use LMB to select nodes, and right click for contextual menus on buttons and other places, you use those same mouse buttons in the 3D View. - - [x] To implement this, we could use some sort of keymap override, so we don’t have to maintain two entirely separate keymaps. - - [x] It might be a good idea to have the select tool be the default tool here, rather than 3D Cursor. Otherwise, users won't immediately be able to select items until they switch to the select tool. *Note: the default for left/right select is outside the scope of this proposal.*

William Reynish commented 2018-09-06 11:28:10 +02:00

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Gibran Kaleel commented 2018-09-06 11:31:54 +02:00

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Gibran Kaleel commented 2018-09-06 11:44:25 +02:00

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Finally! This is definitely gonna open up a big can of flaming worms on Left vs. Right. :) --- +1 for a much more "Thought-out" Left-Click Select as Default. But, with an easy switch for people who want to use Right-Click. So no functionality is taken away from veteran users who painstakingly got used to it over the years.

Splash screen drop-down setting would be perfect. Ability to select your Default Mouse-Click & Keymap Preferences individually on the Splash screen is best, and maybe there won't be a need for a separate Interaction select option as those 2 settings would cover that.

Question: With the new Industry Standard Keymap, will the Maya/3ds Max Interaction/Keymaps still be necessary to be updated & shipped with Blender by Default?

And will the new Left-Click and Right-Click Select options both work interchangeably with the new 2.8 Default & Industry Standard Keymaps?

Because if that's the case, then we can easily ship only the above 2 keymaps as default. Since they'll both work similarly with Left or Right-Click Select. And let the users customize their setups from there.

Would suggest a poll on DevTalk & BlenderArtists Forums just to get an overview of how many users prefer which option by default usage stats. Just as a rough census. --- Easily flammable topic though. :)

Finally! This is definitely gonna open up a big can of flaming worms on Left vs. Right. :) --- +1 for a much more *"Thought-out"* **Left-Click Select** as Default. But, with an easy switch for people who want to use Right-Click. So no functionality is taken away from veteran users who painstakingly got used to it over the years. Splash screen drop-down setting would be perfect. Ability to select your Default Mouse-Click & Keymap Preferences *individually* on the Splash screen is best, and maybe there won't be a need for a separate *Interaction* select option as those 2 settings would cover that. Question: With the new Industry Standard Keymap, will the Maya/3ds Max Interaction/Keymaps still be necessary to be updated & shipped with Blender by Default? And will the new Left-Click and Right-Click Select options both work interchangeably with the new 2.8 Default & Industry Standard Keymaps? Because if that's the case, then we can easily ship only the above 2 keymaps as default. Since they'll both work similarly with Left or Right-Click Select. And let the users customize their setups from there. Would suggest a poll on DevTalk & BlenderArtists Forums just to get an overview of how many users prefer which option by default usage stats. Just as a rough census. --- Easily flammable topic though. :)

Duarte Farrajota Ramos commented 2018-09-06 12:32:47 +02:00

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Duarte Farrajota Ramos commented 2018-09-06 12:54:14 +02:00

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We could even add a dropdown right in the splash screen for this setting.

I'd say splash screen estate is a precious resource, and should be used carefully. I imagine this is a setting a user is likely to set up once and stick with it, rather than change frequently.

While this can take up very little space, splash screen should probably be reserved for frequently changed startup options, like workspaces, templates, startup files or any other transitory or per-project preference.

On the other hand, this may be useful for multi user environments, like computer labs, schools, class rooms, and the like where various users have no fixed seat.

> We could even add a dropdown right in the splash screen for this setting. I'd say splash screen estate is a precious resource, and should be used carefully. I imagine this is a setting a user is likely to set up once and stick with it, rather than change frequently. While this can take up very little space, splash screen should probably be reserved for frequently changed startup options, like workspaces, templates, startup files or any other transitory or per-project preference. On the other hand, this may be useful for multi user environments, like computer labs, schools, class rooms, and the like where various users have no fixed seat.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-06 13:55:47 +02:00

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At one point, we discussed having a separate set-up screen for setting input and device preferences, which only appears the first time you launch Blender. As you say, most users are not likely to change those settings in every launch. They would still be in the Preferences of course, if users change their minds.

At one point, we discussed having a separate set-up screen for setting input and device preferences, which only appears the first time you launch Blender. As you say, most users are not likely to change those settings in every launch. They would still be in the Preferences of course, if users change their minds.

Henrik Berglund commented 2018-09-06 15:42:29 +02:00

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Henrik Berglund commented 2018-09-06 15:42:29 +02:00

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Left click select does feel better when using pen tablets (personally). Also not sure what "Using Alt-LMB for view manipulation also didn’t work with this option." means, it works for me, maybe not by default but at least after changing keys.

Left click select does feel better when using pen tablets (personally). Also not sure what "Using Alt-LMB for view manipulation also didn’t work with this option." means, it works for me, maybe not by default but at least after changing keys.

TheRedWaxPolice commented 2018-09-06 16:15:15 +02:00

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TheRedWaxPolice commented 2018-09-06 16:15:15 +02:00

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I'd vote for Left Click Select to be the new default. That's what a new user would expect, yeah...

About the contextual menu (W), I wish we could customize it's items, so we could fill it with the most used tools of each mode.

I'd vote for Left Click Select to be the new default. That's what a new user would expect, yeah... About the contextual menu (W), I wish we could customize it's items, so we could fill it with the most used tools of each mode.

Matias Mendiola commented 2018-09-06 16:19:12 +02:00

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Matias Mendiola commented 2018-09-06 16:19:12 +02:00

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In #56702#533332, @WilliamReynish wrote:
At one point, we discussed having a separate set-up screen for setting input and device preferences, which only appears the first time you launch Blender. As you say, most users are not likely to change those settings in every launch. They would still be in the Preferences of course, if users change their minds.

totally, that is IMO a much better approach to avoid clutter the splash screen with settings stuff

> In #56702#533332, @WilliamReynish wrote: > At one point, we discussed having a separate set-up screen for setting input and device preferences, which only appears the first time you launch Blender. As you say, most users are not likely to change those settings in every launch. They would still be in the Preferences of course, if users change their minds. totally, that is IMO a much better approach to avoid clutter the splash screen with settings stuff

William Reynish commented 2018-09-06 16:43:39 +02:00

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Matias: Yes, I agree, it’s more elegant to ask once, rather than on every launch.

Henrik: in 2.79 and earlier, the option to use Alt-LMB to do view manipulation could not be combined with Left click select. Hopefully we can address that now.

Matias: Yes, I agree, it’s more elegant to ask once, rather than on every launch. Henrik: in 2.79 and earlier, the option to use Alt-LMB to do view manipulation could not be combined with Left click select. Hopefully we can address that now.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-06 16:51:15 +02:00

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TheRedWaxPolice: the contents of the contextual menus is outside the scope of this topic, but if there are common commands missing, you are welcome to make a list and send it to us.

TheRedWaxPolice: the contents of the contextual menus is outside the scope of this topic, but if there are common commands missing, you are welcome to make a list and send it to us.

Gibran Kaleel commented 2018-09-06 17:11:18 +02:00

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@TheRedWaxPolice wrote:

About the contextual menu (W), I wish we could customize it's items, so we could fill it with the most used tools of each mode.

But the Q (Quick-Menu) already does something similar no? (Also its editor/mode specific.) Once it has it's own preferences tab where we can organize entries and add separators, that would be great. I think the idea is to move the W Contextual Specials Menu to Right-Click and have it be more standard like in other apps.

@mendio wrote:

totally, that is IMO a much better approach to avoid clutter the splash screen with settings stuff

Hmm. Sort of like a 1st time setup guide, which lets you choose your default settings and gives some quick hints on important functions and what to check out next. A lot of other DCC apps do this, would definitely be nice to have. And like Matias said, would help not clutter the Splash with too much setup stuff. Since it's a one time thing. --- Usually in other apps the state of this startup guide is saved in the app data folder, so only if that is deleted will you be prompted again. Will definitely add a nice touch for new users. And can be expanded upon in the future. :)

As for the current issues with Left-Click. Since the new toolbar rework in 2.8. I always wondered why there is a disconnect between activating an operation via hotkey vs. activating in toolbar. Usually in other apps, when you press the hotkey the tool also activates/highlights on the toolbar. And when you press another key (or combination of keys), it drops one and picks another tool. For example, it would be really cool if when you hit G, you activate the Move tool. In the viewport but also highlighted in the toolbar. (Visibility of the gizmo should be defined by your settings in the overlay or user prefs.) So it's basically the same tool/operation. Just 2 different ways of activating it, depending on how you like to work/what panels you have visible, etc.

Is it the Click-Drag "Tweak" behavior of the current LMB/RMB setup that's limiting the Hotkey and Toolbar from becoming/working as one entity? Hopefully the new changes we're looking at for Left-Click select can help merge these disconnects.

>>@TheRedWaxPolice wrote: > About the contextual menu (W), I wish we could customize it's items, so we could fill it with the most used tools of each mode. But the **Q** *(Quick-Menu)* already does something similar no? *(Also its editor/mode specific.)* Once it has it's own preferences tab where we can organize entries and add separators, that would be great. I think the idea is to move the **W** Contextual Specials Menu to Right-Click and have it be more standard like in other apps. >>@mendio wrote: > totally, that is IMO a much better approach to avoid clutter the splash screen with settings stuff Hmm. Sort of like a 1st time setup guide, which lets you choose your default settings and gives some quick hints on important functions and what to check out next. A lot of other DCC apps do this, would definitely be nice to have. And like Matias said, would help not clutter the Splash with too much setup stuff. Since it's a one time thing. --- Usually in other apps the state of this startup guide is saved in the app data folder, so only if that is deleted will you be prompted again. Will definitely add a nice touch for new users. And can be expanded upon in the future. :) As for the current issues with Left-Click. Since the new toolbar rework in 2.8. I always wondered why there is a disconnect between activating an operation via hotkey vs. activating in toolbar. Usually in other apps, when you press the hotkey the tool also activates/highlights on the toolbar. And when you press another key *(or combination of keys)*, it drops one and picks another tool. For example, it would be really cool if when you hit **G**, you activate the **Move** tool. In the viewport but also highlighted in the toolbar. *(Visibility of the gizmo should be defined by your settings in the overlay or user prefs.)* So it's basically the same tool/operation. Just 2 different ways of activating it, depending on how you like to work/what panels you have visible, etc. Is it the Click-Drag *"Tweak"* behavior of the current LMB/RMB setup that's limiting the Hotkey and Toolbar from becoming/working as one entity? Hopefully the new changes we're looking at for Left-Click select can help merge these disconnects.

Rainer Trummer commented 2018-09-06 20:55:59 +02:00

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William Reynish commented 2018-09-08 09:57:02 +02:00

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I updated #56510 with the concept of the setup screen to set the keymap and other setup options.

I updated #56510 with the concept of the setup screen to set the keymap and other setup options.

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-17 23:18:07 +02:00

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Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-18 00:39:34 +02:00

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I feel very conflicted about this proposal. On one hand I love how it makes the LMB work consistently with all tools. It eliminates the conflict pretty well.
On the other hand I think one good thing about the toolbar is that if the user plans to use a tool often you can just keep it active, use it, select something new, use it again, rinse & repeat.
This works nicely in RMB select but if the user needs to constantly switch back to a select tool, they would quickly just ignore all tools and use the operator hotkeys instead and keep the select tool active at all times since it's basically the most essential operation. It just adds more tedium since there's always an extra step of switching the active tool back & forth when using the toolbar.

I still see it working in some way and it is better than the current way it works but if it get's implemented, then I don't think LMB select should be the default. RMB select is still more functional as the originally intended design in my opinion.
I need to reflect more on how it could work better though. What do you think of this problem?

I feel very conflicted about this proposal. On one hand I love how it makes the LMB work consistently with all tools. It eliminates the conflict pretty well. On the other hand I think one good thing about the toolbar is that if the user plans to use a tool often you can just keep it active, use it, select something new, use it again, rinse & repeat. This works nicely in RMB select but if the user needs to constantly switch back to a select tool, they would quickly just ignore all tools and use the operator hotkeys instead and keep the select tool active at all times since it's basically the most essential operation. It just adds more tedium since there's always an extra step of switching the active tool back & forth when using the toolbar. I still see it working in some way and it is better than the current way it works but if it get's implemented, then I don't think LMB select should be the default. RMB select is still more functional as the originally intended design in my opinion. I need to reflect more on how it could work better though. What do you think of this problem?

William Reynish commented 2018-09-18 00:54:55 +02:00

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Most apps work this way. You enable a tool and then left clicking performs actions with that tool. And it’s not like users of those apps are not able to be productive. Most major films are made using tools that work something like this.

Now, the thing other apps do to make things quick, is simply to make switching tools very fast. We have discussed adding a preference to favor active tools, so that pressing, say, G, activates the Move tool, rather than the immediate grab operator. This way, you can use the hotkeys to quickly jump between active tools.

Some users will also just do what you say: keep the select tool active and use the old G, R S etc hotkeys to perform actions. That’s fine too.

In the end, this all means that new users who haven’t learned the hotkeys, or who use a tablet without a keyboard, can now use the tools really well. Old Blender users can continue to use it with quick hotkeys and selecting with LMB, and both types of users will be served here.

Most apps work this way. You enable a tool and then left clicking performs actions with that tool. And it’s not like users of those apps are not able to be productive. Most major films are made using tools that work something like this. Now, the thing other apps do to make things quick, is simply to make switching tools very fast. We have discussed adding a preference to favor active tools, so that pressing, say, G, activates the Move tool, rather than the immediate grab operator. This way, you can use the hotkeys to quickly jump between active tools. Some users will also just do what you say: keep the select tool active and use the old G, R S etc hotkeys to perform actions. That’s fine too. In the end, this all means that new users who haven’t learned the hotkeys, or who use a tablet without a keyboard, can now use the tools really well. Old Blender users can continue to use it with quick hotkeys and selecting with LMB, and both types of users will be served here.

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-18 01:44:08 +02:00

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True, I think users that don't have a keyboard or are used to a more industry standard approach are better served.
And as long as all major tools have easy shortcuts to quickly switch between them, it can still work very fluently. I also like the suggestion that when using the operators instead, the related tools light up to show the connection so that the shortcuts and tools are not entirely disconnected in the old way of using Blender.
I also like the idea of the difference of tapping the G key to set the tool as active and holding G to execute it immediately, as described in the Tool Design Task. This can also work nicely.

But I think it's important to tread carefully (And I know you are) when changing essential operators into mandatory tools such as select, 3D cursor and all transform tools since these become on a basic level slower versions of the old operators because of this inherent switching between them which is forced on every user and wasn't there before.
It's not as bad as having pan, zoom & rotate of the view as mandatory tools but a selection tool is very uncomfortably close but as far as I can see at this point, with how everything works, regrettably necessary. Maybe this as perfect of a solution that we can get for LMB select.

True, I think users that don't have a keyboard or are used to a more industry standard approach are better served. And as long as all major tools have easy shortcuts to quickly switch between them, it can still work very fluently. I also like the suggestion that when using the operators instead, the related tools light up to show the connection so that the shortcuts and tools are not entirely disconnected in the old way of using Blender. I also like the idea of the difference of tapping the G key to set the tool as active and holding G to execute it immediately, as described in the Tool Design Task. This can also work nicely. But I think it's important to tread carefully (And I know you are) when changing essential operators into mandatory tools such as select, 3D cursor and all transform tools since these become on a basic level slower versions of the old operators because of this inherent switching between them which is forced on every user and wasn't there before. It's not as bad as having pan, zoom & rotate of the view as mandatory tools but a selection tool is very uncomfortably close but as far as I can see at this point, with how everything works, regrettably necessary. Maybe this as perfect of a solution that we can get for LMB select.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-18 15:09:33 +02:00

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Well, this should not be any slower than in 2.79. If you set the active tool to Select, you can just keep selecting with LMB and then use the hotkeys to perform commands. So there's no real loss there.

It will be slightly different in that RMB is no longer the 3D Cursor, but in Contextual Menu instead, but that should just feel more flexible and make that menu more prevalent. (As an aside, we should continue to improve that menu to add commonly useful things here in all contexts.)

If you would like to be able to use active tools and also be able to select while using those tools, I think that you are the best served with using right click select, so you always have immediate access to 'use tool' and selecting things.

Well, this should not be any slower than in 2.79. If you set the active tool to Select, you can just keep selecting with LMB and then use the hotkeys to perform commands. So there's no real loss there. It will be slightly different in that RMB is no longer the 3D Cursor, but in Contextual Menu instead, but that should just feel more flexible and make that menu more prevalent. (As an aside, we should continue to improve that menu to add commonly useful things here in all contexts.) If you would like to be able to use active tools and also be able to select while using those tools, I think that you are the best served with using right click select, so you always have immediate access to 'use tool' and selecting things.

Ludvik Koutny commented 2018-09-18 17:42:34 +02:00

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Ludvik Koutny commented 2018-09-18 17:42:34 +02:00

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In #56702#535655, @JulienKaspar wrote:
True, I think users that don't have a keyboard or are used to a more industry standard approach are better served.
And as long as all major tools have easy shortcuts to quickly switch between them, it can still work very fluently. I also like the suggestion that when using the operators instead, the related tools light up to show the connection so that the shortcuts and tools are not entirely disconnected in the old way of using Blender.
I also like the idea of the difference of tapping the G key to set the tool as active and holding G to execute it immediately, as described in the Tool Design Task. This can also work nicely.

But I think it's important to tread carefully (And I know you are) when changing essential operators into mandatory tools such as select, 3D cursor and all transform tools since these become on a basic level slower versions of the old operators because of this inherent switching between them which is forced on every user and wasn't there before.
It's not as bad as having pan, zoom & rotate of the view as mandatory tools but a selection tool is very uncomfortably close but as far as I can see at this point, with how everything works, regrettably necessary. Maybe this as perfect of a solution that we can get for LMB select.

I am quite curious as to why would you willingly choose to stick with RMB centric input mapping if LMB one was made to be equally as usable? I can understand why some people do so now. It's because RMB centric workflow is so deeply embedded all around the Blender it's not just a matter of switching one entry in options, but requires days, possibly weeks of careful fixing in rather fragile input editor, tool per tool.

I mean, I am sure that you use other software alongside Blender. Not only CG software, but all the other software in general, like your operating system, or web browser, or image editor. All of those are LMB centric. Do you feel like switching any of those to be RMB centric would give you any efficiency boost?

Fixing your muscle memory to convert from RMB centric to LMB centric will take about 2 weeks of decreased productivity and frustration (I know that, because I've switched a few 3D packages in my life, and switched to QWERTY keyboard after 12 years of using QWERTZ). But you will be rewarded with very satisfying consistency of Blender working like any other piece of software. You will be as efficient, if not more, as your muscle memory won't have to store 2 different interaction profile, one for Blender and other one for pretty much any other piece of software in the entire world :)

> In #56702#535655, @JulienKaspar wrote: > True, I think users that don't have a keyboard or are used to a more industry standard approach are better served. > And as long as all major tools have easy shortcuts to quickly switch between them, it can still work very fluently. I also like the suggestion that when using the operators instead, the related tools light up to show the connection so that the shortcuts and tools are not entirely disconnected in the old way of using Blender. > I also like the idea of the difference of tapping the G key to set the tool as active and holding G to execute it immediately, as described in the Tool Design Task. This can also work nicely. > > But I think it's important to tread carefully (And I know you are) when changing essential operators into mandatory tools such as select, 3D cursor and all transform tools since these become on a basic level slower versions of the old operators because of this inherent switching between them which is forced on every user and wasn't there before. > It's not as bad as having pan, zoom & rotate of the view as mandatory tools but a selection tool is very uncomfortably close but as far as I can see at this point, with how everything works, regrettably necessary. Maybe this as perfect of a solution that we can get for LMB select. I am quite curious as to why would you willingly choose to stick with RMB centric input mapping if LMB one was made to be equally as usable? I can understand why some people do so now. It's because RMB centric workflow is so deeply embedded all around the Blender it's not just a matter of switching one entry in options, but requires days, possibly weeks of careful fixing in rather fragile input editor, tool per tool. I mean, I am sure that you use other software alongside Blender. Not only CG software, but all the other software in general, like your operating system, or web browser, or image editor. All of those are LMB centric. Do you feel like switching any of those to be RMB centric would give you any efficiency boost? Fixing your muscle memory to convert from RMB centric to LMB centric will take about 2 weeks of decreased productivity and frustration (I know that, because I've switched a few 3D packages in my life, and switched to QWERTY keyboard after 12 years of using QWERTZ). But you will be rewarded with very satisfying consistency of Blender working like any other piece of software. You will be as efficient, if not more, as your muscle memory won't have to store 2 different interaction profile, one for Blender and other one for pretty much any other piece of software in the entire world :)

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-18 18:49:08 +02:00

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@Rawalanche I actually kept working with LMB select for years, only switching a few times to test out the alternative, and am currently the only LMB select user at the Blender Institute as far as I know :D
So far it felt better to use as a pen user and there weren't really any downsides for me to use it.
Although I do agree with you on muscle memory and the benefits of switching to the common keyboard setup etc, that was not really my point. I was just discussing the minor loss of efficiency with the most common operators being replaced with these new tools.
As far as I can tell right now, LMB select in Blender 2.8 will be no longer be equally as usable, even if not by a huge amount.

@Rawalanche I actually kept working with LMB select for years, only switching a few times to test out the alternative, and am currently the only LMB select user at the Blender Institute as far as I know :D So far it felt better to use as a pen user and there weren't really any downsides for me to use it. Although I do agree with you on muscle memory and the benefits of switching to the common keyboard setup etc, that was not really my point. I was just discussing the minor loss of efficiency with the most common operators being replaced with these new tools. As far as I can tell right now, LMB select in Blender 2.8 will be no longer be equally as usable, even if not by a huge amount.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-18 18:52:03 +02:00

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I don't know what you mean. None of the old immediate tools have been removed. You can continue to use G, R, S etc to activate commands. You don't have to use the active tools in the toolbar at all if you prefer not to.

I don't know what you mean. None of the old immediate tools have been removed. You can continue to use G, R, S etc to activate commands. You don't have to use the active tools in the toolbar at all if you prefer not to.

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-18 19:12:08 +02:00

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@WilliamReynish Well my points are these:

• Where before you could use Select, 3D Cursor & Transform Gizmos at the same time they are now changed into Tools to switch between. This makes the Toolbar a mandatory element that has to be used, either trough shortcuts or by selecting the tools.
• Putting essential operators into separate Tools adds an extra step to switch between them, slowing you down in the process. This is not the case with others since the traditional operators still exist (G, R, S shortcuts for example)
• Using Tools consecutively by leaving it active and changing selections is no longer possible in LMB select, since the Tool needs to be switched after each use to the Selection Tool. This removes one of the advantages of using Tools for the average user.
  These are inconveniences, minor for some, major for others.

@WilliamReynish Well my points are these: - Where before you could use Select, 3D Cursor & Transform Gizmos at the same time they are now changed into Tools to switch between. This makes the Toolbar a mandatory element that has to be used, either trough shortcuts or by selecting the tools. - Putting essential operators into separate Tools adds an extra step to switch between them, slowing you down in the process. This is not the case with others since the traditional operators still exist (G, R, S shortcuts for example) - Using Tools consecutively by leaving it active and changing selections is no longer possible in LMB select, since the Tool needs to be switched after each use to the Selection Tool. This removes one of the advantages of using Tools for the average user. These are inconveniences, minor for some, major for others.

Brecht Van Lommel commented 2018-09-18 19:15:50 +02:00

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For me the main open questions are:

• Do we need a dedicated Select tool, or can we share it with Border Select? Other applications handle this in a few different ways:
  Some share LMB for both within one tool, which implies select happens on mouse button release instead of button press. Selection in those applications feels sluggish to me, but I'm not sure if that's just me being picky. Some applications make Select and Border Select separate tools, but this requires more work switching between them.
  ** Some applications put border select on RMB. We could do if there is perhaps one Select tool with Border/Circle/.. as a setting of that tool bound to RMB. This seems less intuitive however.
• What to do about "Click Anywhere" for transform tools? For LMB it makes sense to be able to select outside of the gizmo, so it seems this should be disabled by default. Ton suggested to remove this option entirely and make tools work by clicking on the gizmo whenever possible.

For me the main open questions are: * Do we need a dedicated Select tool, or can we share it with Border Select? Other applications handle this in a few different ways: **Some share LMB for both within one tool, which implies select happens on mouse button release instead of button press. Selection in those applications feels sluggish to me, but I'm not sure if that's just me being picky.** Some applications make Select and Border Select separate tools, but this requires more work switching between them. ** Some applications put border select on RMB. We could do if there is perhaps one Select tool with Border/Circle/.. as a setting of that tool bound to RMB. This seems less intuitive however. * What to do about "Click Anywhere" for transform tools? For LMB it makes sense to be able to select outside of the gizmo, so it seems this should be disabled by default. Ton suggested to remove this option entirely and make tools work by clicking on the gizmo whenever possible.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-18 19:16:37 +02:00

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Julien: You could, I think, still do what you want in 2.8, once we update the keymap. If you use any of the transform tools and disable Click Anywhere, the input will fall back to selection. But, just like in 2.79, this is a quite bad. It means that it's not possible to select items that happen to be under the Gizmo. But if you really want to do it that way, you will be able to.

Julien: You could, I think, still do what you want in 2.8, once we update the keymap. If you use any of the transform tools and disable Click Anywhere, the input will fall back to selection. But, just like in 2.79, this is a quite bad. It means that it's not possible to select items that happen to be under the Gizmo. But if you really want to do it that way, you will be able to.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-18 19:28:09 +02:00

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Brecht: I think yes, we can just use Border Select.
The first option of the three you present I think makes the most sense.
The other option would be that selection happens on on mouse down, but to perform a border select, you can drag from outside an element. This can sometimes get fiddly though, if you have a dense mesh and want to border select something in the middle. That's why the first option is best I think: You can always border select or select individual items.

About Click Anywhere:
I think this should not be disabled by default. All the active tools have the consistent principle that dragging in the viewport uses the tool. We do this for Shrink/Fatten, Extrude, Randomize, all the paint and sculpt modes and so on. Some of these tools don't have a Gizmo, and it doesn't make sense to add one to all the tools. It also means that it's very easy to move around objects. You can enable the Move tool, and just start dragging in the viewport for move items around, without the need to use the Gizmo handles if you don't wish to.

This way, there's also no conflict between selection and transform. In 2.79 there was a conflict when using LMB: Try and select a vertex that happens to be under the transform arrow: You can't - it will move the object instead.

For RMB select it most certainly also is best to have click anywhere on. Otherwise, dragging in the viewport to use the tool does nothing, which negates the usefulness of them.

I think in fact we could do the opposite: Have an option in the tool settings to not show the Gizmo. Sometimes it may get in the way, and it's then nice to just drag and move items without seeing the Gizmo.

Note: One of the small but important things missing is that we should change the mouse cursor icon when changing active tools. Otherwise, it's not immediately clear enough which tool is active. Campbell was going to add support for this, but hasn't been done yet.

Brecht: I think yes, we can just use Border Select. The first option of the three you present I think makes the most sense. The other option would be that selection happens on on mouse down, but to perform a border select, you can drag from outside an element. This can sometimes get fiddly though, if you have a dense mesh and want to border select something in the middle. That's why the first option is best I think: You can always border select or select individual items. About Click Anywhere: I think this should not be disabled by default. All the active tools have the consistent principle that dragging in the viewport uses the tool. We do this for Shrink/Fatten, Extrude, Randomize, all the paint and sculpt modes and so on. Some of these tools don't have a Gizmo, and it doesn't make sense to add one to all the tools. It also means that it's very easy to move around objects. You can enable the Move tool, and just start dragging in the viewport for move items around, without the need to use the Gizmo handles if you don't wish to. This way, there's also no conflict between selection and transform. In 2.79 there was a conflict when using LMB: Try and select a vertex that happens to be under the transform arrow: You can't - it will move the object instead. For RMB select it most certainly also is best to have click anywhere on. Otherwise, dragging in the viewport to use the tool does nothing, which negates the usefulness of them. I think in fact we could do the opposite: Have an option in the tool settings to not show the Gizmo. Sometimes it may get in the way, and it's then nice to just drag and move items without seeing the Gizmo. Note: One of the small but important things missing is that we should change the mouse cursor icon when changing active tools. Otherwise, it's not immediately clear enough which tool is active. Campbell was going to add support for this, but hasn't been done yet.

Ludvik Koutny commented 2018-09-18 20:58:43 +02:00

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@brecht
Click anywhere is useful. I actually love how fluidly Blender allows you to work, not having to always travel your mouse cursor all the way to the transform gizmo to start working. Being 8 year 3ds Max user and only 1 year Blender user, not having to travel my mouse to gizmo to do transforms was very relieving. Click anywhere pretty much unifies current freeform transform tools (GRS) and gizmo based tools into one.

There is indeed valid argument that you should be able to use transform tools and keep selecting at the same time, but after thinking about it for a while, I have realized that not only in Blender, but also in other software, I usually drop the transform tool anyway, before initiating selection, because otherwise I risk an accidental "tweak" operation. The key here is to have border select very easily accessible on a hotkey, which in case of Blender is B, and in case of mainstream software is Q.

Also, please keep in mind that if you disable click anywhere, then this issue is no longer solved and becomes a problem again: https://developer.blender.org/T54482

So I agree with William that he best way is to have transform tools with click anywhere by default, and switch to border select tool for selections. The there there's a crossroad of workflows - oldschool users will probably prefer GRS keys to immediately active move, rotate or scale as in 2.79, while the more modern approach will be for GRS keys to switch between move, rotate and scale, and require just one additional click anywhere on the screen to activate. While this may seem a little slower, the reward is that if you intend to perform multiple tweaks using the same tool, you don't have to hit for example G key multiple times, but instead just keep clicking anywhere in the viewport in the same way you would with regular "tweak" operation, except the tweak here will work for all tools, instead of just grab like in 2.79.

@brecht Click anywhere is useful. I actually love how fluidly Blender allows you to work, not having to always travel your mouse cursor all the way to the transform gizmo to start working. Being 8 year 3ds Max user and only 1 year Blender user, not having to travel my mouse to gizmo to do transforms was very relieving. Click anywhere pretty much unifies current freeform transform tools (GRS) and gizmo based tools into one. There is indeed valid argument that you should be able to use transform tools and keep selecting at the same time, but after thinking about it for a while, I have realized that not only in Blender, but also in other software, I usually drop the transform tool anyway, before initiating selection, because otherwise I risk an accidental "tweak" operation. The key here is to have border select very easily accessible on a hotkey, which in case of Blender is B, and in case of mainstream software is Q. Also, please keep in mind that if you disable click anywhere, then this issue is no longer solved and becomes a problem again: https://developer.blender.org/T54482 So I agree with William that he best way is to have transform tools with click anywhere by default, and switch to border select tool for selections. The there there's a crossroad of workflows - oldschool users will probably prefer GRS keys to immediately active move, rotate or scale as in 2.79, while the more modern approach will be for GRS keys to switch between move, rotate and scale, and require just one additional click anywhere on the screen to activate. While this may seem a little slower, the reward is that if you intend to perform multiple tweaks using the same tool, you don't have to hit for example G key multiple times, but instead just keep clicking anywhere in the viewport in the same way you would with regular "tweak" operation, except the tweak here will work for all tools, instead of just grab like in 2.79.

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-18 20:59:22 +02:00

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@WilliamReynish

If you use any of the transform tools and disable Click Anywhere, the input will fall back to selection. But, just like in 2.79, this is a quite bad. It means that it's not possible to select items that happen to be under the Gizmo. But if you really want to do it that way, you will be able to.

That's good to know. It wasn't clear to me that this would still be the case since I thought it would follow the design principle of the other tools of not being able to select unless the selection tool is active.

So now I was thinking if the same could be possible for all other tools ... but the more I was testing out the tools right now and thinking over it, the more I see that the selection needs to be separated from most tools in LMB select. So a selection tool is still a must.

But if the transform tool, move, rotate and scale still allow normal selection like before, maybe there's another way of doing this.
So here's a proposal:
What if all these operations (all transform gizmos, selection & 3D cursor) would still work like before 2.8. Let's call it the Default Tool (stupid name I know). There you can LMB select, RMB set the 3D cursor and have the gizmo active at all times unless turned off in the Overlay settings. When switching to another Tool like Border/Circle/Lasso Select, Annotations etc, it executes the tool instead and the gizmo becomes overridden with the Tool specific one or temporarily turned off.
This can also work in RMB select except that the selection still works when using any Tool. The 3D cursor could instead still be accessible in LMB select or also turned off and only accessible from the "Default Tool".
This would at least combine the Tools that don't need to be separated and are most commonly used. The current separation also communicates to the user that they are completely separate since only one can be active at a time but that's not the case.

The one reason I could think of is that tablet users usually have only one click option: A tap. But why not introduce a tablet mode as well that splits these specific tools up instead of having them separate for every user. As far as I know Tablet optimisation doesn't work well for normal PC users since it usually has to work in a different or very simplified way, especially if the software is as complex and vast as Blender.

I also noticed that my complaint goes deeper into the design of the Tools itself so should we continue this discussion in another thread?

As far as this task is concerned I agree with the changes except for:

• the right click context menu if something like a "Default Tool" would be implemented
• the Alt + LMB view manipulation since MMB is already used for that. Why have both and what happens if Selection Tool/Default Tool is active?
• the Ctrl + LMB for setting the 3D cursor. Again: What happens if Selection Tool/Default Tool is active?

@WilliamReynish > If you use any of the transform tools and disable Click Anywhere, the input will fall back to selection. But, just like in 2.79, this is a quite bad. It means that it's not possible to select items that happen to be under the Gizmo. But if you really want to do it that way, you will be able to. That's good to know. It wasn't clear to me that this would still be the case since I thought it would follow the design principle of the other tools of not being able to select unless the selection tool is active. So now I was thinking if the same could be possible for all other tools ... but the more I was testing out the tools right now and thinking over it, the more I see that the selection needs to be separated from most tools in LMB select. So a selection tool is still a must. But if the transform tool, move, rotate and scale still allow normal selection like before, maybe there's another way of doing this. So here's a proposal: What if all these operations (all transform gizmos, selection & 3D cursor) would still work like before 2.8. Let's call it the Default Tool (stupid name I know). There you can LMB select, RMB set the 3D cursor and have the gizmo active at all times unless turned off in the Overlay settings. When switching to another Tool like Border/Circle/Lasso Select, Annotations etc, it executes the tool instead and the gizmo becomes overridden with the Tool specific one or temporarily turned off. This can also work in RMB select except that the selection still works when using any Tool. The 3D cursor could instead still be accessible in LMB select or also turned off and only accessible from the "Default Tool". This would at least combine the Tools that don't need to be separated and are most commonly used. The current separation also communicates to the user that they are completely separate since only one can be active at a time but that's not the case. The one reason I could think of is that tablet users usually have only one click option: A tap. But why not introduce a tablet mode as well that splits these specific tools up instead of having them separate for every user. As far as I know Tablet optimisation doesn't work well for normal PC users since it usually has to work in a different or very simplified way, especially if the software is as complex and vast as Blender. I also noticed that my complaint goes deeper into the design of the Tools itself so should we continue this discussion in another thread? As far as this task is concerned I agree with the changes except for: - the right click context menu if something like a "Default Tool" would be implemented - the Alt + LMB view manipulation since MMB is already used for that. Why have both and what happens if Selection Tool/Default Tool is active? - the Ctrl + LMB for setting the 3D cursor. Again: What happens if Selection Tool/Default Tool is active?

William Reynish commented 2018-09-18 21:10:00 +02:00

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Your suggestion of a 'default tool' should not be necessary. It's essentially the same as enabling a Transform tool and disabling Click Anywhere. To set the 3D Cursor, we could just use Ctrl-LMB or Ctrl-RMB even. So you should be covered - you'll just need very slight re-learning to use Ctrl+LMB rather than RMB to set the Cursor, that's all. What you gain is the ability to always use a contextual menu with RMB, which, once you get used to it, you'll most likely enjoy.

Alt+LMB for view manipulation works in Blender currently when Emulate 3 Button Mouse is enabled in the Preferences. This is useful for users who don't have a 3-button mouse, and more importantly, many modern mice have unfomfortable scroll wheels that are not nice to click. Alt+LMB has always been an alternative, it just happened to not work for LMB select. We should fix that.

Your suggestion of a 'default tool' should not be necessary. It's essentially the same as enabling a Transform tool and disabling Click Anywhere. To set the 3D Cursor, we could just use Ctrl-LMB or Ctrl-RMB even. So you should be covered - you'll just need very slight re-learning to use Ctrl+LMB rather than RMB to set the Cursor, that's all. What you gain is the ability to always use a contextual menu with RMB, which, once you get used to it, you'll most likely enjoy. Alt+LMB for view manipulation works in Blender currently when Emulate 3 Button Mouse is enabled in the Preferences. This is useful for users who don't have a 3-button mouse, and more importantly, many modern mice have unfomfortable scroll wheels that are not nice to click. Alt+LMB has always been an alternative, it just happened to not work for LMB select. We should fix that.

Duarte Farrajota Ramos commented 2018-09-18 22:33:02 +02:00

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In #56702#535852, @WilliamReynish wrote:
Alt+LMB for view manipulation works in Blender currently when Emulate 3 Button Mouse is enabled in the Preferences. This is useful for users who don't have a 3-button mouse, and more importantly, many modern mice have unfomfortable scroll wheels that are not nice to click. Alt+LMB has always been an alternative, it just happened to not work for LMB select. We should fix that.

If I may barge in with a different suggestion I have for the better part of the last years been using a RMB tweak event for 3D view rotation, and have grown very fond of it for a few of reasons:

• {icon circle color=green} Mainly because it allows full 3D view manipulation exclusively from the mouse
• {icon circle color=green} Doesn't require any modifier keys whatsoever
• {icon circle color=green} Works without any kind of keyboard interaction (you can even use a wireless mouse or be away from the computer, like for presentation purposes)
• {icon circle color=green} If you keep panning (move view) in the MMB you can fully control viewport navigation with a single hand on the mouse (how conveninent is that? :) )
• {icon circle color=green} From my years of testing tweak events haven't so far interfered much with clicks, leaving right-click still free for:
• RMB selection
• Context menus
• 3D cursor placement,
• or any other planned action
• {icon circle color=green} Everyone can benefit from this, not only users without a 3 button mouse
• {icon circle color=green} You can now more comfortably rotate view from a laptop touchpad (which doesn't often have a wheel or a third button
• {icon circle color=green} You can still keep Alt+LMB plus any other MMB key combinations in parallel (if deemed necessary) or
• {icon circle color=green} Release Alt+LMB for other useful tasks such as selection modifiers selection like add, remove, toggle, or selection extenders like select edge loops, edge rings, connected geometry, childrne, grouped among others.

Possible downside are:

• {icon circle color=red} It might require changing other RMB actions to release events to avoid interfearance
• {icon circle color=red} Release events may add to the perceived sluggishness which is a concern @brecht as raised
• {icon circle color=red} May seem not being totally standard compliant. I understand not many applications use this, but I learned it from using MoI 3D , and if I recall correctly Rhino 3D also uses something along this line by default.
• {icon circle color=red} Though I find it quite unobtrusive it may go against the new "minimal keymap" approach, by adding additional default key binding.

It is an acquired taste, it may not please everyone, so I'll just leave it as a testimony.

> In #56702#535852, @WilliamReynish wrote: > Alt+LMB for view manipulation works in Blender currently when Emulate 3 Button Mouse is enabled in the Preferences. This is useful for users who don't have a 3-button mouse, and more importantly, many modern mice have unfomfortable scroll wheels that are not nice to click. Alt+LMB has always been an alternative, it just happened to not work for LMB select. We should fix that. If I may barge in with a different suggestion I have for the better part of the last years been using a RMB tweak event for 3D view rotation, and have grown very fond of it for a few of reasons: - {icon circle color=green} Mainly because it allows full 3D view manipulation exclusively from the mouse - {icon circle color=green} Doesn't require any modifier keys whatsoever - {icon circle color=green} Works without any kind of keyboard interaction (you can even use a wireless mouse or be away from the computer, like for presentation purposes) - {icon circle color=green} If you keep panning (move view) in the MMB you can **fully control viewport navigation with a single hand** on the mouse (how conveninent is that? :) ) - {icon circle color=green} From my years of testing tweak events haven't so far interfered much with clicks, leaving right-click still free for: - RMB selection - Context menus - 3D cursor placement, - or any other planned action - {icon circle color=green} Everyone can benefit from this, not only users without a 3 button mouse - {icon circle color=green} You can now more comfortably rotate view from a laptop touchpad (which doesn't often have a wheel or a third button - {icon circle color=green} You can still keep Alt+LMB plus any other MMB key combinations in parallel (if deemed necessary) or - {icon circle color=green} Release Alt+LMB for other useful tasks such as selection modifiers selection like add, remove, toggle, or selection extenders like select edge loops, edge rings, connected geometry, childrne, grouped among others. Possible downside are: - {icon circle color=red} It might require changing other RMB actions to *release* events to avoid interfearance - {icon circle color=red} Release events may add to the perceived sluggishness which is a concern @brecht as raised - {icon circle color=red} May seem not being totally standard compliant. I understand not many applications use this, but I learned it from using [MoI 3D ](http://moi3d.com), and if I recall correctly Rhino 3D also uses something along this line by default. - {icon circle color=red} Though I find it quite unobtrusive it may go against the new "minimal keymap" approach, by adding additional default key binding. It is an acquired taste, it may not please everyone, so I'll just leave it as a testimony.

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-18 23:02:40 +02:00

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@WilliamReynish
Yeah I see now where there have been some misunderstandings. I was also under the impression that these tools were planned to be further separated in the future. That possibly still came from some miscommunication during the code quest.
I think I can very much get used to Ctrl + RMB for setting the 3D cursor but using Alt + LMB or Crtl+ LMB is definitely a problem with selection. I hope there can be a good solution for that but unless emulate-3-button mouse is enabled this shouldn't be an issue anyway.

If the selection tool and 3D cursor tool also light up when being used while having any other tool active, that would still make a nice visual connection to the tools but I'm also thinking now there's a problem of them repeatably flashing up when clicking maybe being too distracting.

To be honest I don't find myself using the Context menu that often, usually for removing double vertices and converting curves to meshes but that might also be because I'm using many shortcuts. But this might change with more options being added to the context menu so I might use it more often, as long as it's not going to become to big with options and full with sub-menus. But there's a chance of people like me just ignoring it in the end which is at least not really a bad thing except for a wasted shortcut (But even that can be manually changed if people want to).

@WilliamReynish Yeah I see now where there have been some misunderstandings. I was also under the impression that these tools were planned to be further separated in the future. That possibly still came from some miscommunication during the code quest. I think I can very much get used to Ctrl + RMB for setting the 3D cursor but using Alt + LMB or Crtl+ LMB is definitely a problem with selection. I hope there can be a good solution for that but unless emulate-3-button mouse is enabled this shouldn't be an issue anyway. If the selection tool and 3D cursor tool also light up when being used while having any other tool active, that would still make a nice visual connection to the tools but I'm also thinking now there's a problem of them repeatably flashing up when clicking maybe being too distracting. To be honest I don't find myself using the Context menu that often, usually for removing double vertices and converting curves to meshes but that might also be because I'm using many shortcuts. But this might change with more options being added to the context menu so I might use it more often, as long as it's not going to become to big with options and full with sub-menus. But there's a chance of people like me just ignoring it in the end which is at least not really a bad thing except for a wasted shortcut (But even that can be manually changed if people want to).

William Reynish commented 2018-09-19 11:05:44 +02:00

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Yes, perhaps setting the 3D Cursor should be Ctrl-RMB to avoid possible conflicts is better. It can of course also be set with the 3D Cursor tool as normal.

The contextual menus should become a lot more useful in 2.8 compared to 2.7x. The old W-menu was mostly a random collection of obscure commands, so wasn’t very useful at all. Now, the idea is that it will include the most common and useful commands in a more context sensitive way.

Yes, perhaps setting the 3D Cursor should be Ctrl-RMB to avoid possible conflicts is better. It can of course also be set with the 3D Cursor tool as normal. The contextual menus should become a lot more useful in 2.8 compared to 2.7x. The old W-menu was mostly a random collection of obscure commands, so wasn’t very useful at all. Now, the idea is that it will include the most common and useful commands in a more context sensitive way.

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-19 12:53:06 +02:00

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Another thing I noticed is when assigning Ctrl + RMB to setting the 3D Cursor, then there needs to be a new shortcut for the lasso tool. Actually I'd like the lasso selection to get a simple key like B & C for Box & Circle select. These work fine for them so it can work for Lasso select as well.
But maybe that's not really possible since most are already taken in Edit Mode and reassigning it to a key might require reassigning of other keys as well.
Maybe the shortcut for the 3D Cursor can be Ctrl + Alt + RMB but this likely just involves too many keys.

Another thing I noticed is when assigning Ctrl + RMB to setting the 3D Cursor, then there needs to be a new shortcut for the lasso tool. Actually I'd like the lasso selection to get a simple key like B & C for Box & Circle select. These work fine for them so it can work for Lasso select as well. But maybe that's not really possible since most are already taken in Edit Mode and reassigning it to a key might require reassigning of other keys as well. Maybe the shortcut for the 3D Cursor can be Ctrl + Alt + RMB but this likely just involves too many keys.

Ludvik Koutny commented 2018-09-19 13:34:28 +02:00

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In #56702#535982, @JulienKaspar wrote:
Another thing I noticed is when assigning Ctrl + RMB to setting the 3D Cursor, then there needs to be a new shortcut for the lasso tool. Actually I'd like the lasso selection to get a simple key like B & C for Box & Circle select. These work fine for them so it can work for Lasso select as well.
But maybe that's not really possible since most are already taken in Edit Mode and reassigning it to a key might require reassigning of other keys as well.
Maybe the shortcut for the 3D Cursor can be Ctrl + Alt + RMB but this likely just involves too many keys.

Wouldn't it make more sense for Lasso to be a mode of Box select? For example modifier key in box select mode, or RMB in box select mode, etc...

> In #56702#535982, @JulienKaspar wrote: > Another thing I noticed is when assigning Ctrl + RMB to setting the 3D Cursor, then there needs to be a new shortcut for the lasso tool. Actually I'd like the lasso selection to get a simple key like B & C for Box & Circle select. These work fine for them so it can work for Lasso select as well. > But maybe that's not really possible since most are already taken in Edit Mode and reassigning it to a key might require reassigning of other keys as well. > Maybe the shortcut for the 3D Cursor can be Ctrl + Alt + RMB but this likely just involves too many keys. Wouldn't it make more sense for Lasso to be a mode of Box select? For example modifier key in box select mode, or RMB in box select mode, etc...

Julien Kaspar commented 2018-09-19 14:21:56 +02:00

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@Rawalanche It already is it's own tool at the moment. It's in the tool dropdown together with Box & Circle select so I don't think it makes sense to add it to the box select tool.
But there should still be a shortcut related operator to access it without switching the active tool, the same way it works right now. If it's included in the box select operator as well you would press B and then instead draw a lasso with RMB or by holding a modifier key?
That's not really clear enough if you don't know how to access lasso select.

@Rawalanche It already is it's own tool at the moment. It's in the tool dropdown together with Box & Circle select so I don't think it makes sense to add it to the box select tool. But there should still be a shortcut related operator to access it without switching the active tool, the same way it works right now. If it's included in the box select operator as well you would press B and then instead draw a lasso with RMB or by holding a modifier key? That's not really clear enough if you don't know how to access lasso select.

William Reynish commented 2018-09-19 14:23:42 +02:00

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Julien: Yes, we could re-assign lasso to be more consistent with Box Select and Circle Select. This would afford ud the ability to use Ctrl-RMB for setting the 3D Cursor.

Other options for Lasso: Shift+Ctrl+LMB or Shift+Ctrl+RMB.

Julien: Yes, we could re-assign lasso to be more consistent with Box Select and Circle Select. This would afford ud the ability to use Ctrl-RMB for setting the 3D Cursor. Other options for Lasso: Shift+Ctrl+LMB or Shift+Ctrl+RMB.

Matias Mendiola commented 2018-09-19 14:39:14 +02:00

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BTW the name Circle Select not describe very well what the tool actually does. IMO Is more like a paint selection tool

BTW the name Circle Select not describe very well what the tool actually does. IMO Is more like a paint selection tool

William Reynish commented 2018-09-19 14:43:28 +02:00

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Matias: I agree, we should rename it. It's very different from the other two.

Matias: I agree, we should rename it. It's very different from the other two.

Duarte Farrajota Ramos commented 2018-09-20 17:28:16 +02:00

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In #56702#535852, @WilliamReynish wrote:
Your suggestion of a 'default tool' should not be necessary. It's essentially the same as enabling a Transform tool and disabling Click Anywhere.

Maybe this "default tool" is simply an "idle state" state where for veteran users Blender 2.8 would behave like the previous versions where no active tool is performing any actions, and one can safely click on objects to select. I believe in current state it is a closer equivalent to having the 3D Cursor Tool active.

However I believe having the proposed "Selection Tool" active by default at startup would be far more welcoming and yield more expected results for new users. Selection is the most basic of tasks and the one they are likely to want to preform first, rather than set some unknown cursor.
This doesn't necessarily require coding a new tool or adding a new icon to the toolbar, it could just simply be the current Border Select, where clicking would select and Tweak events or dragging would start border select (or whichever other mode is active like paint, lasso, etc).

I'd say it is probably just a matter of making it the topmost icon in the toolbar (to better communicate it is some sort of "default state"), make it active by default at first startup.
Possibly add actual arrow cursor to the border icon {F4765886, layout=inline, width=32} (or completely replace it), to make it clearer like most graphics software. This would be a "safe mode" for all selection matters where a user click away without risks of accidental transforms.

> In #56702#535852, @WilliamReynish wrote: > Your suggestion of a 'default tool' should not be necessary. It's essentially the same as enabling a Transform tool and disabling Click Anywhere. Maybe this "default tool" is simply an "idle state" state where for veteran users Blender 2.8 would behave like the previous versions where no active tool is performing any actions, and one can safely click on objects to select. I believe in current state it is a closer equivalent to having the 3D Cursor Tool active. However I believe having the proposed "Selection Tool" active by default at startup would be far more welcoming and yield more expected results for new users. Selection is the most basic of tasks and the one they are likely to want to preform first, rather than set some unknown cursor. This doesn't necessarily require coding a new tool or adding a new icon to the toolbar, it could just simply be the current *Border Select*, where clicking would select and *Tweak* events or dragging would start border select (or whichever other mode is active like paint, lasso, etc). I'd say it is probably just a matter of making it the topmost icon in the toolbar (to better communicate it is some sort of "default state"), make it active by default at first startup. Possibly add actual arrow cursor to the border icon {[F4765886](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F4765886/image.png), layout=inline, width=32} (or completely replace it), to make it clearer like most graphics software. This would be a "safe mode" for all selection matters where a user click away without risks of accidental transforms.

Petter Lundh commented 2018-09-22 11:57:00 +02:00

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Petter Lundh commented 2018-09-22 11:57:00 +02:00

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Selection is an area in which Modo really shines, and I prefer the way it's done there:

• Selection is always active until you activate a tool (though there is also an option to modify a selection while a tool is active)
• You can always border-select and paint-select. Starting to drag the pointer when it's not over something selectable activates border-select. Staring to drag over something selectable (ie. a polygon, if in polygon select mode) activates paint select. This lets you jump between different modes effortlessly, especially combined with the Shift-key modifier which takes away from the current selection.
• You can, however, toggle off paint-select at any time with a hotkey, if you want mouse drag to always activate box-select.
• Border-select and lasso-select (and other shapes) is a toggle, not two separate tools.

Furthermore, left-click selects visible, while middle-click is x-ray select. This way you don't have to enter a separate "x-ray mode". In other words, the display setting and the x-ray selection behaviour is completely decoupled.

Pressing an extra button to activate "selection mode" seems extremely cumbersome for what is for most people the most frequent action.

Selection is an area in which Modo really shines, and I prefer the way it's done there: - Selection is always active until you activate a tool (though there is also an option to modify a selection while a tool is active) - You can always border-select and paint-select. Starting to drag the pointer when it's not over something selectable activates border-select. Staring to drag over something selectable (ie. a polygon, if in polygon select mode) activates paint select. This lets you jump between different modes effortlessly, especially combined with the Shift-key modifier which takes away from the current selection. - You can, however, toggle off paint-select at any time with a hotkey, if you want mouse drag to always activate box-select. - Border-select and lasso-select (and other shapes) is a toggle, not two separate tools. Furthermore, left-click selects visible, while middle-click is x-ray select. This way you don't have to enter a separate "x-ray mode". In other words, the display setting and the x-ray selection behaviour is completely decoupled. Pressing an extra button to activate "selection mode" seems extremely cumbersome for what is for most people the most frequent action.

Vít Procházka commented 2018-10-02 13:24:20 +02:00

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Dan Pool commented 2018-10-03 19:08:11 +02:00

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Zino Guerr commented 2018-10-04 15:10:21 +02:00

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Zino Guerr commented 2018-10-04 15:10:21 +02:00

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i don't know if it's planned or not but i noticed in blender u can assign the same hotkey multiple times but only counts for the first one. it would be useful to have something that tells you that the hotkey is already assigned and gives you the possibility to override the other one.

i don't know if it's planned or not but i noticed in blender u can assign the same hotkey multiple times but only counts for the first one. it would be useful to have something that tells you that the hotkey is already assigned and gives you the possibility to override the other one.

William Reynish commented 2018-10-04 15:39:38 +02:00

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Petter: This is outside the scope of left click select. This is a comment on the general approach to tools and selection in Blender.
Zino: Off topic. This has nothing to do with left click select.

Petter: This is outside the scope of left click select. This is a comment on the general approach to tools and selection in Blender. Zino: Off topic. This has nothing to do with left click select.

cédric lepiller commented 2018-10-09 15:13:23 +02:00

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cédric lepiller commented 2018-10-09 15:13:23 +02:00

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Nobody answered about why keeping RMB as selection.

There are some benefits of the RMB, but it's not enough to keep it as default or to keep it IMHO.
I don't know how many people (including me) having trouble because of that when trying to learn Blender, they stop Blender because they don't know it's possible to change it.
People who don't know 3D can accommodate with it and they will say they are fine with it but for the other big part, it's a big No, they put it to LMB.

At one point, you have to decide if you want open blender to pro world with LMB as default or keep 2 different ways to select in the software.
I can understand in the proposal that you want to make it easy for every people, but it complicates everything.

When learning a new software, if it's too different from other software, it's not great.
Try to use Mudbox after using Maya, it's really easy, it's in the continuity, you can learn it in only a couple of hours.

Sorry if I'm out of scope, but this is a really important topic and it seems way too complicated to try to make 2 modes when you can make one that will help new people to use blender and only hurt some others for a few days/weeks.

Nobody answered about why keeping RMB as selection. There are some benefits of the RMB, but it's not enough to keep it as default or to keep it IMHO. I don't know how many people (including me) having trouble because of that when trying to learn Blender, they stop Blender because they don't know it's possible to change it. People who don't know 3D can accommodate with it and they will say they are fine with it but for the other big part, it's a big No, they put it to LMB. At one point, you have to decide if you want open blender to pro world with LMB as default or keep 2 different ways to select in the software. I can understand in the proposal that you want to make it easy for every people, but it complicates everything. When learning a new software, if it's too different from other software, it's not great. Try to use Mudbox after using Maya, it's really easy, it's in the continuity, you can learn it in only a couple of hours. Sorry if I'm out of scope, but this is a really important topic and it seems way too complicated to try to make 2 modes when you can make one that will help new people to use blender and only hurt some others for a few days/weeks.

William Reynish commented 2018-10-09 15:32:58 +02:00

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Yes, the learning 'curve' (more like learning wall) would be great to soften up. Making LMB-select the default would go a long way here.

However, it's a radical change, and not something that everyone agrees to at this moment in time.

The first step is to make sure that LMB select works really well. Only then does it make sense to really review if it should be default or not.

Yes, the learning 'curve' (more like learning wall) would be great to soften up. Making LMB-select the default would go a long way here. However, it's a radical change, and not something that everyone agrees to at this moment in time. The first step is to make sure that LMB select works really well. Only then does it make sense to really review if it should be default or not.

kevin deguisne commented 2018-10-09 15:41:03 +02:00

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kevin deguisne commented 2018-10-09 15:41:03 +02:00

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Perhaps everything has been said but I would like to add that right click select is nearly impossible with a tablet due to the pointer moving when you press the button on the side of the pen.

Perhaps everything has been said but I would like to add that right click select is nearly impossible with a tablet due to the pointer moving when you press the button on the side of the pen.

Vincent Lamy commented 2018-10-09 16:10:21 +02:00

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Vincent Lamy commented 2018-10-09 16:10:21 +02:00

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However, it's a radical change

That's right, but in any case even long-term users of Blender will have some relearning curve when Blender 2.8 will be production ready, so why not take this opportunity to switch to LMB by default. Plus I think switching from RMB to LMB is more a nostalgic difficulty gap than a constraining one :)

> However, it's a radical change That's right, but in any case even long-term users of Blender will have some relearning curve when Blender 2.8 will be production ready, so why not take this opportunity to switch to LMB by default. Plus I think switching from RMB to LMB is more a nostalgic difficulty gap than a constraining one :)

Mikail commented 2018-10-09 16:11:42 +02:00

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Mikail commented 2018-10-09 16:11:42 +02:00

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I personally use blender along side many other programs and I need to jump along them a lot during my work (when texturing in substance painter, or refining my blender sculpts with zbrush, or transferring models in game engine, or tweaking normal maps or images inside affinity photo) these other software's all use left click select like 90% of any software known to mankind and when I get back to blender its nice to have option to use left click as well. I highly recommend using this as a default, because there is many new dev's and kids who starts using blender because its free and powerful tool and the first impression is so very important to keep these future users feeling at home the day 1 they launch and start learning the world of 3d.

I personally use blender along side many other programs and I need to jump along them a lot during my work (when texturing in substance painter, or refining my blender sculpts with zbrush, or transferring models in game engine, or tweaking normal maps or images inside affinity photo) these other software's all use left click select like 90% of any software known to mankind and when I get back to blender its nice to have option to use left click as well. I highly recommend using this as a default, because there is many new dev's and kids who starts using blender because its free and powerful tool and the first impression is so very important to keep these future users feeling at home the day 1 they launch and start learning the world of 3d.

William Reynish commented 2018-10-09 16:22:06 +02:00

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I am sympathetic to all those arguments and largely agree. I think this needs to be tackled in stages:

First, we implement the improved support for LMB select and make sure it works well in all modes and with the tools.

Then, we add it to the startup screen so you can easily pick it as an option.

After this is done we can easily flip the default if we can come to an agreement to do so.

I am sympathetic to all those arguments and largely agree. I think this needs to be tackled in stages: First, we implement the improved support for LMB select and make sure it works well in all modes and with the tools. Then, we add it to the startup screen so you can easily pick it as an option. After this is done we can easily flip the default if we can come to an agreement to do so.

YAFU commented 2018-10-09 16:43:50 +02:00

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YAFU commented 2018-10-09 16:43:50 +02:00

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The only 3D software I know and use is Blender 3D. I really do not have problems with RMB to select. But I really wish that LMB is established by default only to stop listening to complaints and whining about it, and that finally Blender development will focus once and for all on features and performance that is what really matters and what attracts new users.
I have seen many new users enthusiastically testing Blender 2.8 for first time because of Eevee and Grease Pencil, even with Blender still having an unfinished UI at all. Features and performance is what really attracts users.

The only 3D software I know and use is Blender 3D. I really do not have problems with RMB to select. But I really wish that LMB is established by default only to stop listening to complaints and whining about it, and that finally Blender development will focus once and for all on features and performance that is what really matters and what attracts new users. I have seen many new users enthusiastically testing Blender 2.8 for first time because of Eevee and Grease Pencil, even with Blender still having an unfinished UI at all. Features and performance is what really attracts users.

William Reynish commented 2018-10-09 16:48:05 +02:00

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Yafu: It's important that left-click select is made to work well. Lots of people use devices which require it. Making something the default is not a developmental burden - making it work well is the primary thing. The default is just flipping a switch.

Yafu: It's important that left-click select is made to work well. Lots of people use devices which require it. Making something the default is not a developmental burden - making it work well is the primary thing. The default is just flipping a switch.

YAFU commented 2018-10-09 17:22:38 +02:00

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I see, William. I hope that devs can make LMB work well without major problems.

I see, William. I hope that devs can make LMB work well without major problems.

Loïc DAUTRY commented 2018-10-10 16:56:44 +02:00

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Loïc DAUTRY commented 2018-10-10 16:56:44 +02:00

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In #56702#541100, @WilliamReynish wrote:

First, we implement the improved support for LMB select and make sure it works well in all modes and with the tools.

Then, we add it to the startup screen so you can easily pick it as an option.

After this is done we can easily flip the default if we can come to an agreement to do so.

This!
I wish I could upvote comments. This is the way to go without generating a new total war.

> In #56702#541100, @WilliamReynish wrote: > > First, we implement the improved support for LMB select and make sure it works well in all modes and with the tools. > > Then, we add it to the startup screen so you can easily pick it as an option. > > After this is done we can easily flip the default if we can come to an agreement to do so. This! I wish I could upvote comments. This is the way to go without generating a new total war.

Sebastian M Roy commented 2018-10-18 03:30:21 +02:00

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Sebastian M Roy commented 2018-10-18 03:30:21 +02:00

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Hi, I did a survey to more than 30 people in a game development studio. Thanks @WilliamReynish you are the only person in Blender who understands UX, thanks for working in a more standard interaction. The first time I tested Blender was when they launched Sintel, downloaded and tested Blender, I thought it did not work on my PC, I thought blender did not work well in Windows, it was a program only for linux, because "I clicked and did not do anything , LOL". And I never tried it again, it took eight years.

https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/Wbcbbc/#5b9fbdcf2155dc28ed46e571

Hi, I did a survey to more than 30 people in a game development studio. Thanks @WilliamReynish you are the only person in Blender who understands UX, thanks for working in a more standard interaction. The first time I tested Blender was when they launched Sintel, downloaded and tested Blender, I thought it did not work on my PC, I thought blender did not work well in Windows, it was a program only for linux, because "I clicked and did not do anything , LOL". And I never tried it again, it took eight years. https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/Wbcbbc/#5b9fbdcf2155dc28ed46e571

noki paike commented 2018-10-18 05:52:58 +02:00

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noki paike commented 2018-10-18 05:52:58 +02:00

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@sebastianmroy
lol, ok that blender is not industry standard ... however, you too son, could investigate 10 minutes more before trashing it for 10 years

@sebastianmroy lol, ok that blender is not industry standard ... however, you too son, could investigate 10 minutes more before trashing it for 10 years

Thales Davidsen commented 2018-10-20 12:58:23 +02:00

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Thales Davidsen commented 2018-10-20 12:58:24 +02:00

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I think it's in the biggest innterst for both Blender aswell as the users to have a LMB,

I had the same experiences as @sebastianmroy, when I first started Blender, you get confused and click arround and thought the program was broken. Blender cannot deny that a lot of user have this exact experince. I belive the goal for all programs should be to be as userfriendly as possible.

When I first starting working with 3D I only used Blender and I after some time I got to learn to be familiar with the defult RMB

Before I started working professional with 3D I though the RBM was quit nice and handy as it worked very well internally within Blender. However with my curret proffesion I have to use several 3D programs at my work place, and this made the workflow not consistens for me to contniue useing RMB, as most programs does not let you change the defult selection and 99% of programs have LMB selection, and I do think this is important to remember. The LMB vs RMB seams like a little thing, I hear alot of people say "just get used to it", but I belive thats a huge burden to ask the user and will be a big drawback for Blender if they do not have propper LMB selection support both for expereinced proffesionals and new user.

I think it's in the biggest innterst for both Blender aswell as the users to have a LMB, I had the same experiences as @sebastianmroy, when I first started Blender, you get confused and click arround and thought the program was broken. Blender cannot deny that a lot of user have this exact experince. I belive the goal for all programs should be to be as userfriendly as possible. When I first starting working with 3D I only used Blender and I after some time I got to learn to be familiar with the defult RMB Before I started working professional with 3D I though the RBM was quit nice and handy as it worked very well internally within Blender. However with my curret proffesion I have to use several 3D programs at my work place, and this made the workflow not consistens for me to contniue useing RMB, as most programs does not let you change the defult selection and 99% of programs have LMB selection, and I do think this is important to remember. The LMB vs RMB seams like a little thing, I hear alot of people say "just get used to it", but I belive thats a huge burden to ask the user and will be a big drawback for Blender if they do not have propper LMB selection support both for expereinced proffesionals and new user.

William Reynish commented 2018-10-20 13:31:35 +02:00

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We know. That's why we are working on improving LMB select, and why we are discussing the possibility to make it the default, once it works well.

We know. That's why we are working on improving LMB select, and why we are discussing the possibility to make it the default, once it works well.

Jean Da Costa commented 2018-10-20 20:22:27 +02:00

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Jean Da Costa commented 2018-10-20 20:22:27 +02:00

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In #56702#544502, @WilliamReynish wrote:
We know. That's why we are working on improving LMB select, and why we are discussing the possibility to make it the default, once it works well.

Lets suppose LMB be the default, what about all those who developed years of muscle memory with RMB. would you guarantee that RMB still works well?
And what about addons with modal operators that are generally hardcoded to RMB how to deal with the inconsistency?

> In #56702#544502, @WilliamReynish wrote: > We know. That's why we are working on improving LMB select, and why we are discussing the possibility to make it the default, once it works well. Lets suppose LMB be the default, what about all those who developed years of muscle memory with RMB. would you guarantee that RMB still works well? And what about addons with modal operators that are generally hardcoded to RMB how to deal with the inconsistency?

William Reynish commented 2018-10-20 20:26:14 +02:00

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@jeacom: Of course. If, hypothetically, LMB-select becomes the default, RMB-select will continue to work.

I'll reiterate that there is no complete consensus on this, and the first step is simply to make LMB-select work well.

As for addons, if they register themselves as an active tool, this should be no problem.

@jeacom: Of course. If, hypothetically, LMB-select becomes the default, RMB-select will continue to work. I'll reiterate that there is no complete consensus on this, and the first step is simply to make LMB-select work well. As for addons, if they register themselves as an active tool, this should be no problem.

Sebastian M Roy commented 2018-10-20 21:29:19 +02:00

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It is also important to be able to deselect with the empty space (or in an object with restrict viewport selection), also move the object only if you click and drag over it. These icons would also be more intuitive. https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/4hcbbc/selection-tool-icons

It is also important to be able to deselect with the empty space (or in an object with restrict viewport selection), also move the object only if you click and drag over it. These icons would also be more intuitive. https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/4hcbbc/selection-tool-icons 

William Reynish commented 2018-10-20 21:34:59 +02:00

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@sebastianmroy: Nice idea with the selection icons.

As for only dragging when you are over an object, that is not how Blender works, and probably isn't a very good idea for handling complex 3D scenes. You may be working in wireframe, you may have many tiny objects, or objects with holes, or thin, long objects. It would be very fiddly for most things if you had to drag on top of the thing you want to move. One of the nice things is that you can drag wherever you want

@sebastianmroy: Nice idea with the selection icons. As for only dragging when you are over an object, that is not how Blender works, and probably isn't a very good idea for handling complex 3D scenes. You may be working in wireframe, you may have many tiny objects, or objects with holes, or thin, long objects. It would be very fiddly for most things if you had to drag on top of the thing you want to move. One of the nice things is that you can drag wherever you want

Sebastian M Roy commented 2018-10-20 22:27:16 +02:00

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I refer to an interaction as in vector programs, such as inkscape, coreldraw or illustrator. It would be useful to incorporate this pattern. Only with the mouse and without using keyboard shortcuts, you can do everything.

Double click to enter edit mode.
Click in empty space to deselect.
Click and drag selection box
Left click contextual menu
Only with a single tool can you do all these basic actions, such as selecting, selecting groups, editing nodes, moving, rotating, scaling.

https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/yccbbc/

I refer to an interaction as in vector programs, such as inkscape, coreldraw or illustrator. It would be useful to incorporate this pattern. Only with the mouse and without using keyboard shortcuts, you can do everything. Double click to enter edit mode. Click in empty space to deselect. Click and drag selection box Left click contextual menu Only with a single tool can you do all these basic actions, such as selecting, selecting groups, editing nodes, moving, rotating, scaling. https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/yccbbc/

KiJeon commented 2018-10-21 08:33:36 +02:00

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KiJeon commented 2018-10-21 08:42:31 +02:00

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In #56702#544572, @WilliamReynish wrote:
As for only dragging when you are over an object, that is not how Blender works, and probably isn't a very good idea for handling complex 3D scenes. You may be working in wireframe, you may have many tiny objects, or objects with holes, or thin, long objects. It would be very fiddly for most things if you had to drag on top of the thing you want to move. One of the nice things is that you can drag wherever you want

Maybe others can chime in here, but I've used Blender in left-click select mode with left-click drag enabling box select for years and I can't think of a single time this was an issue.

> In #56702#544572, @WilliamReynish wrote: > As for only dragging when you are over an object, that is not how Blender works, and probably isn't a very good idea for handling complex 3D scenes. You may be working in wireframe, you may have many tiny objects, or objects with holes, or thin, long objects. It would be very fiddly for most things if you had to drag on top of the thing you want to move. One of the nice things is that you can drag wherever you want Maybe others can chime in here, but I've used Blender in left-click select mode with left-click drag enabling box select for years and I can't think of a single time this was an issue.

William Reynish commented 2018-10-21 09:55:03 +02:00

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In #56702#544640, @0o00o0oo wrote:
Maybe others can chime in here, but I've used Blender in left-click select mode with left-click drag enabling box select for years and I can't think of a single time this was an issue.

That’s different. What was proposed earlier was that you’d only be able to drag objects in the viewport if your cursor is over that object.

> In #56702#544640, @0o00o0oo wrote: > Maybe others can chime in here, but I've used Blender in left-click select mode with left-click drag enabling box select for years and I can't think of a single time this was an issue. That’s different. What was proposed earlier was that you’d only be able to drag objects in the viewport if your cursor is over that object.

KiJeon commented 2018-10-21 15:45:56 +02:00

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Ah, okay, my apologies. I misread that as the usual request of dragging and clicking the mouse to enable box selection.

I can't say I understand the request to only move objects when clicking and dragging over them.

Ah, okay, my apologies. I misread that as the usual request of dragging and clicking the mouse to enable box selection. I can't say I understand the request to only move objects when clicking and dragging over them.

Ludvik Koutny commented 2018-10-22 10:41:02 +02:00

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Is there any ETA on 2.8 tool system properly working with LMB? I'd like to start re-making my custom keymap for 2.8

Is there any ETA on 2.8 tool system properly working with LMB? I'd like to start re-making my custom keymap for 2.8

William Reynish commented 2018-10-22 13:04:58 +02:00

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@Rawalanche You'll have to wait a bit more. After BConf, but before the beta, we should be able to hopefully tackle this. But it may be an ongoing thing where we keep on tweaking things for a while.

@Rawalanche You'll have to wait a bit more. After BConf, but before the beta, we should be able to hopefully tackle this. But it may be an ongoing thing where we keep on tweaking things for a while.

William Reynish commented 2018-11-18 21:11:50 +01:00

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The initial version of this has been committed here: bf7af31e9f

The initial version of this has been committed here: bf7af31e9f

Rick Yorgason commented 2018-11-18 22:41:39 +01:00

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Rick Yorgason commented 2018-11-18 22:41:39 +01:00

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It's worth looking at Fusion 360 (it's free, so no excuses!) as far as first-launch input settings go. If I recall correctly, it popped up a non-modal window on the side of the workspace, and you could pick which preset you preferred while experimenting with how they feel before dismissing the window.

It's worth looking at Fusion 360 (it's free, so no excuses!) as far as first-launch input settings go. If I recall correctly, it popped up a non-modal window on the side of the workspace, and you could pick which preset you preferred *while experimenting with how they feel* before dismissing the window.

Campbell Barton commented 2018-11-19 00:42:51 +01:00

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Campbell Barton commented 2018-11-19 00:42:51 +01:00

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Note, text on "Defaults" is out-dated - also find language biased, calling existing conventions "old", saying new users would like it to be left without noting the down-sides (which new users will of course be unaware of).

Suggest to remove the "Defaults" section from this task since it's not the purpose, or make a new task and link to it.

Note, text on "Defaults" is out-dated - also find language biased, calling existing conventions "old", saying new users would like it to be left without noting the down-sides (which new users will of course be unaware of). Suggest to remove the "Defaults" section from this task since it's not the purpose, or make a new task and link to it.

Rick Yorgason commented 2018-11-19 04:44:00 +01:00

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The defaults section actually spiraled into two questions:

1. Is it better for left-click-select to be the default? (Probably resulting in fewer new users complaining, but more experienced users complaining, although you're much more likely to lose new users than experienced users.)
2. Whatever the default is, should Blender prompt you with an easy way to change the default without digging into the settings window? (Ameliorating whatever decision arises from question 1.)

The defaults section actually spiraled into two questions: 1) Is it better for left-click-select to be the default? (Probably resulting in fewer new users complaining, but more experienced users complaining, although you're much more likely to lose new users than experienced users.) 2) Whatever the default is, should Blender prompt you with an easy way to change the default without digging into the settings window? (Ameliorating whatever decision arises from question 1.)

William Reynish commented 2018-11-19 09:27:06 +01:00

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@Skrapion:

• 1: Yes, that is true. But first we have to make the left click keymap work perfectly in all areas of Blender. There are still areas where it doesn't work so well still. When it works perfectly, we can think about making the switch or not.
• 2: This is already the case.

@Skrapion: - 1: Yes, that is true. But first we have to make the left click keymap work perfectly in all areas of Blender. There are still areas where it doesn't work so well still. When it works perfectly, we can think about making the switch or not. - 2: This is already the case.

Joachim Hutters commented 2018-11-19 11:09:55 +01:00

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Joachim Hutters commented 2018-11-19 11:09:55 +01:00

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In #56702#555348, @Skrapion wrote:
It's worth looking at Fusion 360 (it's free, so no excuses!) as far as first-launch input settings go. If I recall correctly, it popped up a non-modal window on the side of the workspace, and you could pick which preset you preferred while experimenting with how they feel before dismissing the window.

[I have posted a suggestion ]] for a 'enhanced' splash screen design ([ https:*developer.blender.org/T56510 | #56510 ) that I think could do this in a discrete way.

> In #56702#555348, @Skrapion wrote: > It's worth looking at Fusion 360 (it's free, so no excuses!) as far as first-launch input settings go. If I recall correctly, it popped up a non-modal window on the side of the workspace, and you could pick which preset you preferred *while experimenting with how they feel* before dismissing the window. [I have posted a suggestion ]] for a 'enhanced' splash screen design ([[ https:*developer.blender.org/T56510 | #56510 ](https:*developer.blender.org/T56510#533631)) that I think could do this in a discrete way.

Andreas Lutsch commented 2018-11-19 23:56:26 +01:00

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So3Datel commented 2018-11-23 13:51:07 +01:00

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So3Datel commented 2018-11-23 13:51:07 +01:00

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Sorry for my English and my prejudiced opinion. I'm using Blender with Left Click.
Does anyone use 3d max here, anyone? Please respond. Because I’m in a panic about how basic selection tools work with move manipulator in Blender. I am writing this post not for hate, but for make blender better.
I use 3ds max too. 3ds max use Left Click for everything. In 3ds max selection \ deselection, border selection and manipulator handles work together very conveniently, easily and clearly. And these tools do not interfere with each other. In 3d max it is so easy.
But in Blender, selection \ deselection, border selection and manipulator working together is just awful. These are separate tools that cannot work together, and if they work, it is very inconvenient and difficult. I can’t understand why such basic tools work so badly :)
I can make a video about comparing Blender and 3ds max basic selection tools work . But my english is very primitive and terrible, maybe you will not understand anything of what i am saying, and may take a long time. But I can make this video, if it really will be useful to developers.

Sorry for my English and my prejudiced opinion. I'm using Blender with Left Click. Does anyone use 3d max here, anyone? Please respond. Because I’m in a panic about how basic selection tools work with move manipulator in Blender. I am writing this post not for hate, but for make blender better. I use 3ds max too. 3ds max use Left Click for everything. In 3ds max selection \ deselection, border selection and manipulator handles work together very conveniently, easily and clearly. And these tools do not interfere with each other. In 3d max it is so easy. But in Blender, selection \ deselection, border selection and manipulator working together is just awful. These are separate tools that cannot work together, and if they work, it is very inconvenient and difficult. I can’t understand why such basic tools work so badly :) I can make a video about comparing Blender and 3ds max basic selection tools work . But my english is very primitive and terrible, maybe you will not understand anything of what i am saying, and may take a long time. But I can make this video, if it really will be useful to developers.

kursad k commented 2018-11-30 01:53:17 +01:00

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kursad k commented 2018-11-30 01:53:17 +01:00

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I have been a left click (with a wacom tablet) user in Blender for a long time. It worked perfectly for me, especially because I liked the tweaking functionality where I do not need to press a second button to do my model tweaks or animations, just like dragging a node in the node editor.

After the latest additions to left click select in 2.8 branch, I can say that this feels pretty good from a left click person's perspective. Please bear in mind that I use bunch of other 3d applications, and personally my initial issue with right click was not because it was the right click. My issue is that have to press a button on my pen to get things going in RCS. This is no issue when I can just utilize the pen tip which is a natural implementation of the hardware as a left click, therefor left click+tweak on the fly feels incredibly fluid with a tablet pen device. This even gets more awesome when posing bones.

In that regard I think 2.8 left click has come along well with good implementations there, however there is an issue, which could be a biggie or a small depending on the person. The selection modes, which require cycling, meaning that I need to give up "Tweak" mode or reach to the keyboard for Ctrl, which is fine. I am not complaining much about it.

What if there are users who do not need the right click as a contextual menu? Can then the right click be spared for the last selection mode that was set in the space bar tools menu, if not make it an additive lasso selection? We do not need to change whatever is offered at the moment, but I am bringing it up as something on top of what has been done.

thanks

I have been a left click (with a wacom tablet) user in Blender for a long time. It worked perfectly for me, especially because I liked the tweaking functionality where I do not need to press a second button to do my model tweaks or animations, just like dragging a node in the node editor. After the latest additions to left click select in 2.8 branch, I can say that this feels pretty good from a left click person's perspective. Please bear in mind that I use bunch of other 3d applications, and personally my initial issue with right click was not because it was the right click. My issue is that have to press a button on my pen to get things going in RCS. This is no issue when I can just utilize the pen tip which is a natural implementation of the hardware as a left click, therefor left click+tweak on the fly feels incredibly fluid with a tablet pen device. This even gets more awesome when posing bones. In that regard I think 2.8 left click has come along well with good implementations there, however there is an issue, which could be a biggie or a small depending on the person. The selection modes, which require cycling, meaning that I need to give up "Tweak" mode or reach to the keyboard for Ctrl, which is fine. I am not complaining much about it. What if there are users who do not need the right click as a contextual menu? Can then the right click be spared for the last selection mode that was set in the space bar tools menu, if not make it an additive lasso selection? We do not need to change whatever is offered at the moment, but I am bringing it up as something on top of what has been done. thanks

kursad k commented 2018-11-30 21:23:40 +01:00

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Ok I actually went ahead and mapped right button (well it is top and bottom on a pen) of my Wacom tablet to "Ctrl - Left" ,so my right click is actually a lasso selection now. As far as I can tell this is quite a workflow improvement, at least for me and I can definietely recommend this combo to be part of Blender as an option.

thanks

Ok I actually went ahead and mapped right button (well it is top and bottom on a pen) of my Wacom tablet to "Ctrl - Left" ,so my right click is actually a lasso selection now. As far as I can tell this is quite a workflow improvement, at least for me and I can definietely recommend this combo to be part of Blender as an option. thanks

Paul Kotelevets commented 2019-04-20 20:37:09 +02:00

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Paul Kotelevets commented 2019-04-20 20:37:09 +02:00

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In #56702#535872, @DuarteRamos wrote:

In #56702#535852, @WilliamReynish wrote:
Alt+LMB for view manipulation works in Blender currently when Emulate 3 Button Mouse is enabled in the Preferences. This is useful for users who don't have a 3-button mouse, and more importantly, many modern mice have unfomfortable scroll wheels that are not nice to click. Alt+LMB has always been an alternative, it just happened to not work for LMB select. We should fix that.

If I may barge in with a different suggestion I have for the better part of the last years been using a RMB tweak event for 3D view rotation, and have grown very fond of it for a few of reasons:

• {icon circle color=green} Mainly because it allows full 3D view manipulation exclusively from the mouse
• {icon circle color=green} Doesn't require any modifier keys whatsoever
• {icon circle color=green} Works without any kind of keyboard interaction (you can even use a wireless mouse or be away from the computer, like for presentation purposes)
• {icon circle color=green} If you keep panning (move view) in the MMB you can fully control viewport navigation with a single hand on the mouse (how conveninent is that? :) )

You are a bit mistaken, but yes, single hand layout is good.
But chance is already lost because of menu)

Professional single hand Navigation looks like

• LMB for select, RMB for pan
• MMB for all opertions around centered point
  • double MMB for view selected
  • scroll MMB for view zooming
  • press MMB for view turntable rotation
  • Ctrl+MMB for dolly
  • Alt+MMB for Roll
  • Shift+MMB for centering view.

Alt + F has been changed to Alt + MMB, now it blocks the Rolling ability, so navigation has become more incomplete and inconvenient in terms of relevance.

> In #56702#535872, @DuarteRamos wrote: >> In #56702#535852, @WilliamReynish wrote: >> Alt+LMB for view manipulation works in Blender currently when Emulate 3 Button Mouse is enabled in the Preferences. This is useful for users who don't have a 3-button mouse, and more importantly, many modern mice have unfomfortable scroll wheels that are not nice to click. Alt+LMB has always been an alternative, it just happened to not work for LMB select. We should fix that. > > If I may barge in with a different suggestion I have for the better part of the last years been using a RMB tweak event for 3D view rotation, and have grown very fond of it for a few of reasons: > > - {icon circle color=green} Mainly because it allows full 3D view manipulation exclusively from the mouse > - {icon circle color=green} Doesn't require any modifier keys whatsoever > - {icon circle color=green} Works without any kind of keyboard interaction (you can even use a wireless mouse or be away from the computer, like for presentation purposes) > - {icon circle color=green} If you keep panning (move view) in the MMB you can **fully control viewport navigation with a single hand** on the mouse (how conveninent is that? :) ) You are a bit mistaken, but yes, single hand layout is good. But chance is already lost because of menu) Professional single hand Navigation looks like - LMB for select, RMB for pan - MMB for all opertions around centered point - double MMB for view selected - scroll MMB for view zooming - press MMB for view turntable rotation - Ctrl+MMB for dolly - Alt+MMB for Roll - Shift+MMB for centering view.  Alt + F has been changed to Alt + MMB, now it blocks the Rolling ability, so navigation has become more incomplete and inconvenient in terms of relevance.

Brecht Van Lommel commented 2019-04-20 21:39:43 +02:00

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Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Brecht Van Lommel closed this issue 2019-04-20 21:39:43 +02:00

Brecht Van Lommel self-assigned this 2019-04-20 21:39:43 +02:00

Brecht Van Lommel commented 2019-04-20 21:39:43 +02:00

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The bullet points from the original task description have been done, closing.

#57918 (Tweaks & Fixes for Improved Left Click Select Support (Parent task)) has the remaining left click select issues that are planned to be solved.

The bullet points from the original task description have been done, closing. #57918 (Tweaks & Fixes for Improved Left Click Select Support (Parent task)) has the remaining left click select issues that are planned to be solved.

Paul Kotelevets commented 2019-11-22 22:17:57 +01:00

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There is another issue that makes the current Blender's default edit mode LMB selection almost inappropriate for organic modeling , as it slows it down by almost half comparing to 2.8 RMB or both 2.79 LMB or RMB selection.
It seems that it forces box selection or gizmo even if there is no any kind of ability of box selection or gizmo:

https://developer.blender.org/T70645#792905

Also it deselects on nothing even if Deselect on Nothing checkbox is disabled in the keymap preferences.

It can't be handled as software bug because of design, so it is design problem of LMB selection of entire 2.8X family.

There is another issue that makes the current Blender's default edit mode LMB selection almost inappropriate for [organic modeling ](https://youtu.be/Tsaa_D6CcSo), as it slows it down by almost half comparing to 2.8 RMB or both 2.79 LMB or RMB selection. It seems that it forces box selection or gizmo even if there is no any kind of ability of box selection or gizmo: https://developer.blender.org/T70645#792905 Also it deselects on nothing even if Deselect on Nothing checkbox is disabled in the keymap preferences. It can't be handled as software bug because of design, so it is design problem of LMB selection of entire 2.8X family.

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Module

VFX & Video

Platform

FreeBSD

Platform

Linux

Platform

macOS

Platform

Windows

Priority

High

Priority

Low

Priority

Normal

Priority

Unbreak Now!

Status

Archived

Status

Confirmed

Status

Duplicate

Status

Needs Info from Developers

Status

Needs Information from User

Status

Needs Triage

Status

Resolved

Type

Bug

Type

Design

Type

Known Issue

Type

Patch

Type

Report

Type

To Do

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Clear milestone

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Brecht Van Lommel

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Reference: blender/blender#56702

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